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Thread: Bye-bye Wingmaster HD

  1. #1

    Default Bye-bye Wingmaster HD

    I have read that due to the high cost of tungsten metal (and the apparent low sales) Remington is discontinuing the Wingmaster HD line of ammo.

    It is/was a great load for those special hunts where every shot counts and a great load for the third shot in an autoloader or pump.

    It is a shame that price inflation and lack of sales has doomed a great product.

  2. #2

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    bob,
    it is a shame great load gone. Heavy shot hasn't helped the cause. looks like steel will be the cheapest option soon with the price of lead doing what it is. guess i should start testing steel 6's and 7s for dove and quail loads lol

  3. #3

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    I managed to stock up on a bunch for my 20 gauge. With about double the pellet count of #3 steel and with each #6 HD pellet hitting at least as hard as #3 steel at extreme range HD is like shooting two shots at once, in terms of the pattern. Great for that duck that thnks it has gotten away.

    I don't use it except for my third shot which means I don't shoot that many.

    Plus, the #4 HD will prove to be a great load for geese and cranes.

    I don't trust the folks at Environmetal to make an effective pellet after they reduced the percentage of tungsten in their Heyi Duck load several years ago. Apparently they skimped on the tungsten to reduce costs and lightened the pellets. They allegedly went back to a denser pellet but the damage is done as far as I am concerned. I doubt that i'd buy anything with Hevi in the name.

  4. #4

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    Expensive but wow, was that some good stuff. I have several boxes from a case a buddy and I split from a few years back. I use it for the follow up shot.

    I am now using Heavy Metal. It's a decent blend for the money. It patterns well and is much more effective than straight steel. I like it better than Black Cloud. BC seems to tear up birds (your mileage may vary).

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobshem View Post
    I don't trust the folks at Environmetal to make an effective pellet after they reduced the percentage of tungsten in their Heyi Duck load several years ago. Apparently they skimped on the tungsten to reduce costs and lightened the pellets. They allegedly went back to a denser pellet but the damage is done as far as I am concerned. I doubt that i'd buy anything with Hevi in the name.
    yep they did that in all there loads not just the duck. I used the heavi shot turkey as a big selling point was its heavier then lead, then environmetal changed it and never told anyone. basically saved the company thousands because their prices only went up. I'm with you, I wont buy anything from someone who deals or has delt like that in the past

  6. #6
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    Most people especially with the economy like it is could not afford the heavy stuff. The ammo companies figured that they would push fancy steel instead as it is cheap. I think there may be some great innovations in steel the next few years. I think that Blind side in 3 and 4 will be very effective. As many know Winchester got the idea from their HV regular steel that is not round but is welding slag they say. It is very effective as regular steel goes.

    It is funny to see old pattern tests on sites like Duck Hunters Refuge and all the test patterns those guys have used and they talk about how round and perfect certain loads are. When exactly the opposit has proven the best.

    That is one reason they loaded scrap in cannons in the Civil War as they found it more effective than grape shot.

    It would be best to go back to lead, but that won't happen.

    My interest in this is to get the most hunters off the marsh the quickest so that the birds are not driven out.

  7. #7

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    Feel free to spend a buck or more per shell for steel cubes or steel shot with "cutting bands". It is your money. I am convinced that these "innovations" are simply marketing. What is it that PT Barnum was accused of saying?

    My mainstay shell is a 20 gauge 7/8th ounce of #3 steel in the three inch Kent Fasteel shell. For less than 15 bucks a box it does a fantastic job at all reasonable ranges. That is 60 cents a shot, not a buck or two or three.

    Plus, on more than one occasion I have gotten two birds with a single payload, the latest was on September 20th when I dropped a pair of wigeon on my first shot of the day. That means that each bird could get up to an average of 7/16th ounce of steel shot. That's less than one half ounce per bird. And, the birds were dead.

    There is no need for expensive steel shot when you can do what you need to do with good old plain vanilla round steel pellets.

    The keys are:

    1. Shot placement - a cube or "cutting band" is worthless if it misses the bird - the same holds true for a perfect sphere.
    2. Good pattern - a quality extended choke, like the Comp-N-Choke Light Modified, makes great, even patterns with steel and other hard pellets.
    3. Speed - light steel pellets need speed, the 1550/1560 FPS Kent shells seem perfect. Heavy pellets (lead, tungsten) do well at "normal" velocities.
    4. Gun balance - the best ammo in the world won't compensate for a lousy swing.
    5. Manageable recoil - a gun that kicks hard teaches a shooter how to flinch.

  8. #8

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    From the Gun Digest Book of Sporting Shotguns (page 68)

    Lighter or less dense than lead or any of the existing federally-approved non-toxic alternatives, steel pellets must be driven faster in order to provide and retain sufficient energy - or at least in this case, energy values which approximate that of the other alternatives.

    IMHO, you'd be better off with 1 1/8th or 1 1/16th ounce of #3 steel at 1550/1560 FPS than you would be with 1 3/8 ounce of #2 HEX shot at 1400 FPS. The extra quarter ounce of shot adds to recoil not to mention cost.

  9. #9

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    This is gonna confuse a lot of people but M will stand for mass or weight of the pellet, V will be the velocity and E will be the energy.
    The energy formula from physics is ½Mass X Velocity2 = Energy or ½ M X V2 = E
    As mass doubles energy doubles. However as velocity doubles energy quadruples
    Simply put you get a lot more energy shooting faster loads

  10. #10

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    When I went to college in Southern Illinois I used to hunt geese with 12 gauge "baby" magnum shells loaded with 1 1/2 ounce of lead #2s. It was an excellent load but after a while I noticed that it didn't seem to kill very well. A good friend was shooting a side by side Spanish 10 gauge with 2 1/4 ounces of lead shot. He told me that to kill those big Canada geese that we needed to use the big 10 "gouge", as he called it. Tough birds required a tough gun and ammo.

    I got to believing him and started a search for a cheap, used side by side ten. However, before I could get my hands on one my girlfriend asked to join me hunting. I bought her a 20 gauge Remington Model 1100. I taught her to shoot with that gun. I also learned to love that gun and borrowed it a lot. So, instead of getting a 10 gauge I bought myself a 20. Then I cooked up some 1 1/8 ounce loads of #2 lead for geese and #6s for ducks.

    The gun and shell combos were excellent. As it turned out, I had started to develop a flinch with my 12 gauge baby magnums. Once I got accustomed to the 20 my flinch disappeared and I could consistently out-shoot my buddy with his 10 gauge. My buddy suffered from a terrible flinch, which he didn't seem to want to acknowledge. He wasn't no sissy and the 10 wasn't tougher than he was (or so he thought).

    I am sure that he was confused by my success with the 20 gauge.

    For quite a long time you could not get a decent 20 gauge steel load so I used a variety of 12 gauge guns. That changed when faster loads came on the market. I had almost abandoned the idea of shooting a 20 until I took the 13 year old son of a friend on a duck hunt. The kid kept up with me and his Dad, which was impressive seeing that he had only been shooting for a year or two. His success with his 20 inspired me to revisit the 20. I haven't looked back.

    The key is to put the shot in the same spot as the duck. If you flinch it won't get there. Find the correct combo of gun and ammo and you will be pleasantly surprised. Shoot fast steel but keep the payload reasonable and you can't go wrong.

  11. #11
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    Speed adds to recoil also! Once you get past 40 years the speed drops off and you get a thin pattern!

  12. #12
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    Any 12 would pattern that small load better than a 20 just like a Mossburg 10 ga patterns better than the highly touted ciro Benelli barrels.

  13. #13
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    Your own math formula is confusing to even you as it has little real relevance to shotshell performance. Energy only increases not even 200 fps in most fast loads and with wind, range, type of bird hardly matters. FASt is the real Barnum and Bailey. Don't tell me Winchester decided to push Blind Side at 1400 in the midst of the speed fetish, they are not stupid!

  14. #14

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    Winchester is not stupid. Heck they have gotten you lining up to spend your money. Enjoy!

  15. #15

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    bob,
    I'm on the hunt for a good 20ga myself. after shooting a bunch of 7/8th and 1oz loads this year i have no doubt i can be just as effective with a 20ga out to 40 yards. I'd love to have a nice light 20ga to swing on ducks in flooded timber.

  16. #16

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    I have the Benelli Cordoba in 20 gauge. Fantastic gun all around.

    I have heard good reports on the Benelli M2 in 20 gauge as well. Ron Latschaw, founder of Final Approach, uses an M2 in 20 gauge for his waterfowling, both ducks and geese.

    I used to shoot a Remington LT 20 (2 3/4 chamber). The superior balance of the Benelli makes it a clear winner.

    I'd stay away from the Benelli Ultra Light. The Cordoba with its ported barrel, lengthened forcing cone, and Comfortech stock and recoil pad makes it easy on the shoulder. I suspect that the Ultra Light would have a noticeable kick.

  17. #17
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    I liked that 20 gauge double gun that Duckhunter01 carried on the day I hunted with him. Kinda makes me think about trying to find one. I bought a 16 gauge A5 that I want to try next year. I need to get another barrel for it though, as this one is a full choke. Personally I shoot Federal 2 3/4 #2's and they seem to do the job just fine. And at 11.99 per box you can't go wrong. Enjoy shooting those 20 dollar boxes of shells, you won't see me ever buying any of them.
    Some people call it sky busting... I call it optimism
    "Swans are a gift" -DucksandDogs
    I am a shoveler's worst nightmare!

  18. #18

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    I have a 20ga O/U but the problem with it is i never seem to kill tripples

  19. #19
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    I am looking for a Parker side by side. I have a beretta O/U and I have the same problem, no tripples.
    Some people call it sky busting... I call it optimism
    "Swans are a gift" -DucksandDogs
    I am a shoveler's worst nightmare!

  20. #20
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    What about made up gel tests, are they good for double guns?

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