I am curious if anyone is using this ammo. Three bears is selling it for a decent price.
I am curious if anyone is using this ammo. Three bears is selling it for a decent price.
there is a long thread on it a few days ago, scroll down
I think that BS in #4 would be a total killer load. So far it is only in #2. One the other thread there was a post from some writer saying it was hype and that any 3rd grader could see that the weights of the loads are the same so the same amount of shot must be in the shell, even though Winchester says the revolutionary stacked shot is not hype.
So I cut open an Estate #2 1 3/8 once load and a Blind Side shell of the exact same shot size and weight and guess what?
The BS had 175 pellets to the Estate (good brand and load BTW) 158 for the more or less 15% increase claimed by Winchester.
So, don't always heed so-called gun expert writers BS, who knows what their agenda is?
I could not tell if the stacked shot or even if it was stacked as the hull is black, but the hex shot is smaller, more like #3, and this IS GOOD and is probably the reason for the 15% increase and the 250% increase in the kill zone as advertised.
Winchester Expert Hi-Velocity # 3 has 194 pellets
# 2 has 158 both are 1 1/4 once loads
I think some real great loads are not available in Anchorage. 1 3/8 loads in #3 or 4 are just not available and would beat to hell the 1/1/4 # 2's which I do not consider a serious waterfowl load.
I know many will say they kill ducks with this load or even smaller amounts of fast driven #2 or even 3, but studies prove it is the amount of shot in the vitals that kill duck cleanly. Dogs can cover this up as they retreive birds that would have escaped but died on the swim, especialy if long, back to the hunter.
If Blind Side comes out with a 1 3/8 non 3 1/2 inch load, there may not be much to compare it to, except an improved Black Cloud.
you bring up a good point I hadn't thought about with BS. From point to point on the "hex shot" is where they are getting the #2 size shot from, however since its flat on the sides and not rounded it prob weighs the same as a #3 round pellet but cuts a #2 size hole in a duck. basically you get bigger holes from 15% more pellets. Another thing to consider is that its impossible to get more of the same size pellets in into a load of the same weight. a #2 pellet weighs .150 of an once so 125 pellets per oz. #3's are .140 per. or 155 per oz. simply put unless BS #2 pellets are less then .150 per your not gonna get more into any load of the same weight no matter how they are stacked. so if they get 15% more pellets in a 1 3/8th load vs round shot then they made the shot lighter and isn't that the problem with steel? its lighter then lead and thus less effective. seems like winchester is going backwards to me. unless what they mean is they can fit a heavier charge in a smaller hull but this leads to over pressure issues or slower loads. I'd be interested to see what the exact weight of a BS #2 pellet really is
They are not lighter, but smaller and more can fit. Probably photos would tell the story, but it is too much bother with the parameters of this site and I don't have the time. No, In fact, I have been thinking that with the economy and the many cripples I had this year that the manufactures were making the shot lighter. I think that actually the BS may be heavier, it is dictinctly a bright shot, not black like regular steel shot. BTW, i think that maybe the whole velocity thing sold by Kent and now etc. may be only to cheapen the load as powder cost less than metal. A hundred foot per second velocity is very overrated. I'll take more shot in the load anyday. Years ago I handloaded steel and got the effect you talk about with your handloads, but I don't buy it that you are getting the effect with light loads of steel.
you simply can not have more heavier pellets for a load with the same overall mass. to put it mathmatically Mass/pellets = mass per pellet or 1 3/8th oz or 602grains so for this purpose 602gn/175 = 3.44gn per pellet you estate load also a 602gn load. 602gn/158 = 3.8gn per pellet. therefore the pellets in your estate load are heavier then in your blindside load no matter how you stack them. This of course is asuming that both charges are actually 1 3/8th or 602gns. if they were then they should contain 170 pellets at 3.54gn per pellet. its not uncommon to see a 5-7 pellet variation between shells from the same box of ammo. by the looks of it your estate load is a 1 1/4oz load, that or they found a way to make super dense steel
I think your dog is doing more for your rate of dead and retreived birds if true than your handload.
I said more pellets because they are #3 size...not more weight?
sure the pup helps but the main factor is that I shoot a load and choke combo that shoots well in MY gun. if BS shot better then my loads thats what I would shoot.
You did in fact say it was heavier.No, In fact, I have been thinking that with the economy and the many cripples I had this year that the manufactures were making the shot lighter. I think that actually the BS may be heavier, it is dictinctly a bright shot, not black like regular steel shot
again not possible. 1 3/8th or 602gn load, no matter what size #2 or #3 if it weights 3.54gn (standard #2 pellet size) you can only fit 170 pellets in 1 3/8th oz no matter how you slice it you "smaller heavier" BS can not have more pellets. the only way this is can happen is if the pellets are lighter..........if your pellets are heavier then it takes less pellets to add up to 602gns. doesn't mater how big or small the shot is, Weight is the only factor here. starting to think you dont understand mass, volume, and pellet density. I agree with you that a smaller heavier pellet would be better but your still not gonna get more of them in a load the same weight. heck a 1 3/8th of lead 4s has a lot less pellets then 1 3/8th of lead. you only need so much patten density to kill.They are not lighter, but smaller and more can fit.
then there are other factors such as pellet frontal area and the effects this has on both down range energy and and penitration. Blindside goes against all of these. this is why you get so many guys claiming its good to 40-45 yards. hex shot is slowing down faster then steel and requires more energy to push thru feathers, skin, flesh, and bone. You dont push 250% more frontal area thru a bird without using more energy then required for round pellets. these two factors combined are the reasons that people get poor resuslts beyond those ranges. The reason for the poor results under 20-25 yards that people report is due to the wad design and the way it opens. your looking at a load thats very effective in a 15-20 yard window. if those are the ranges you shoot then its a killer load. those ARE the ranges I shoot and it does pattern well in my gun but whats the point? Kent, remington sportsman,winchester xpert all patten just as well and are cheaper per box not to mention i reload them way cheaper.
bottom line, any load that shoots a good even pattern with your gun/choke combo will kill ducks at a given range. dense metal loads and fast loads are the onlything that will extend you effective range as long as you have the pattern density required.
I bet the OP is beyond confused
Ok, got cha on the weight, What I meant but did not explain is that Winchester is in a death match with Federal Black Cloud and may have understated the weight to look more effective when the hunters experienced the results. You may know that a lot of this shotshell nonsense is BOGUS..OK, there, I said it! For instance, they used to pack a lot of shot in the old 2 3/4 baby mag, but they needed to sell the 3 1/2 inch just like the Pick-ups always have more HP every year for no good reason except it gets people to buy.
More shot could be packed in these 3 inch shells. That is why an off brand shell, Estate did it and had a good shell. Blind Side is only 1400 fps and that is enough. More shot, less fps is my philosophy.
Oh, another thing you are young and have better eye coordination than older shooters, so we must take the average age into consideration when we add all this up. If we don't want to push more shot what is the purpose of 3 1/2 inch except to scare all the ducks out of dodge??? 10 ga.? I can also tell you that Mossburg has the right idea with an overbored 10ga. barrel on it's 12 gauge.
Handloading will give you good combo patterns you can keep loading if you can secure all the correct components. Factory ammo is more consistant and reliable, I bet you won't agree with that? Trouble is in Anchorage and Valley is you cannot find the same ammo at least the better ones on a reliable basis. It's all a trade off.
I dont have to many issues getting components. I order in bulk and load all winter long. I load all my shotshells like i do rifle rounds. every powder and shot charge gets weighed on a scale. I agree with you on the mossberg. I own a few and shoot a 935 (overbore barrel) at waterfowl because I get GREAT patterns from it.
Yes, old mossy is underrated and makes better patterns than much more expensive guns. You should try that super load of yours without fido and see what happens, that would be a eye-opener for you I bet. just saying
More in the mag WILDFOWL this month on how the major ammo companies are discontinueing the heavy shot types because of the increasing preformance of the new steel loads. Maybe this puts to rest the naysayers that say BS and BC are hype!
It gos on to say how the hex type pellets and their superior performance were developed over 10 years ago by a small company, but were put on the back burner and Winchester picked it up.
Griffin, I don't think you have enough data to conclude that hex shot "slows down faster and requires more energy to push through feathers, skin, flesh and bone." Aerodynamically and with respect to penetration on birds, the hex shot "could" be superior (I say could because I haven't the data either). A perfectly smooth round ball has a lot more drag that a dimped one - i.e. a golf ball. It would take actual testing to determine whether the hex shot will maintain its velocity as well as a steel pellet of equal weight. I haven't seen any info on this, but I haven't really looked. On penetration, the sharper edge may cut whereas a round ball will not. The hex shot may cut through feathers while a round shot will pick up and try to push the feather through the bird, thereby increasing its frontal area and diminishing penetration. Absent real world testing, I do not believe that you can generalize that the hex shot will not perform as well or even better than round shot based upon a simple physics. Just saying it is a very complicated matter.
That said, if what you have works for you, then don't try to fix it.
Somebody in a earlier thread said 3 bears has it. Went to 3 bears, kgb last night and they don't. Said 3 bears palmer/wasilla hwy has it. Does anyboody know how much the stuff cost? Bud
Never tried the blind sides, however I like the REM hyper sonics. Not saying one shell is better than the next but these are fast and pattern well in my gun. Guess that's all that matters is to find the shell that works well with your particular weapon.
Fired it over a chronograph at 40-45-50 yards and it does in fact slow faster then round shot. penetration testing was done on both whole fullgrown mallards (dead and stationary) and 8"X8" ballstic gell cubes.
you buy the hype of these new loads without testing them if you like. I test EVERYTHING i take into the marsh.