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Thread: Freighter canoe projects ... HB/MB version ....

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    Talking Freighter canoe projects ... HB/MB version ....



    My Hudson Bay with Mud Buddy Mini 23 spent September being put together, tested on the river and then moose hunting in the Minto Flats. A total of 13 hours on the hourmeter. Not really a complete test, but absolutely glitch free, no broken welds or problem vibration. Still learning how to drive the rig. A big step up in ability and capacity from my beloved 19'er (sold) and 15 Yamaha 2 stroke (for sale).

    Modified my canoe trailer to handle the extra length and weight of the HB ... still, modification needed to make the trailer load up more efficiently, but pulls beautifully.

    After a few hours testing on the Chena River, I launched into the Minto Flats for a solo moose hunting trip, with my Border Collie, Ben. According to GPS, the trip totaled 116 miles. Average cruising speed was 17 mph, at about 2/3 throttle. My interest is in reliability and efficiency. The rig, canoe and MB, were flawless. I burned 8 gallons of gas in that 116 miles. I'm impressed. I was carrying 24 gallons in 4 - 6 gallon portable tanks, since I thought I might have to make 2 round trips. The fiberglass hull of the HB sure slides over logs and mud much easier than my aluminum 19'er. Stability was a revelation.

    One day, I went up a creek I'd been up before, but the water level was much lower than on previous visits. I finally decided to turn around when the creek became a sheet of watery mud on top of real mud. The HB/MB turned around in virtually its own length. That put a smile on my face. And then, the MB pulled me out of the muck, throwing a latte colored rooster tail. No drama or excitement. I'm sure that muck would have done in my 15 Yam's cooling system.

    Time to winterize the HB/MB for winter storage. Taking the motor off for the winter. HB is spending the off season upside-down on timbers. Like a regular canoe.

    For next season:
    Kevlar hull reinforcements patterned after the example posted by kandik;
    Longer handle on the MB;
    A custom aluminum stand-up bar ... I make aluminum tubing dog sleds, so my technique should be appropriate;
    Improved bunks, side bunks and guide-ons for the trailer as well as a new winch;
    Test performance/power differences between the 11 X10 prop and the 12.25" "Big Blade;"
    Learn and perfect the art of trimming the prop to the proper level for each speed and condition;
    Fish, hunt and explore the Boneyard.

    Happy trails, Rick

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    The picture above shows the MB Mini in its trailering-trim position.

    Below is a picture of the motor trimmed for cruising. Note the level of the hull bottom, compared to the prop.



    The next pic shows the lowest trim position. Supposed to be for deep mud, thick vegetation, or other conditions I can't imagine, yet. Haven't gone this deep - not even close.



    To protect the transom while trailering, the bunks come to the very back of the hull, and I reinforced the transom. An 18" X3" X0.50" 6061T6 has been epoxied flat against the roughed up fiberglass transom. The MB's mount machine screws fit in recesses machine into the aluminum bar. The MB is then thru-bolted through the bar. So the weight of the motor is not borne by just the bolts thru the laminate. Should be quite strong.





    the motor is mounted 1.25" off center ... to counteract torque.

    Nice seat on swivel. Never had a seat before. What was I thinkin'?



    And, inspired by RickP's HB with mats, these are industrial 3 X 5 (2) mats from A & W wholesale.



    These rigs are a lot of fun to personalize. I think it needs a quiet exhaust system. Hmmmmm.

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    Nice set up! This past spring, I remember that feeling of first running my surface drive to test before heading out remote, it's a great feeling when you realize what these things will do as compared to what we used to run (outboards with lifts). It's amazing what they'll do. Although I've never broken a prop on a traditional outboard, or a water pump, I do notice a major difference in TORQUE and POWER with motor trimmed right as opposed to starving an outboard motor in shallow water. I'm confident that you will have a great transition from once running an aluminum boat with outboard, to a fiberglass canoe with surface drive next season. With a repair kit, you can fix any fiberglass damage in a remote section.

    If you slice an aluminum hull open, it might be impossible to fix. Since Scott Canoes are built of polyester resin, it's very affordable to have some kicking around with some matt fiberglass. Polyester resin sets up so quickly too, you could literally be back on the water in a couple hours! Same thing with your nice motor.....easy to work on. I look forward to your journey of customizing your boat to fit you, and hope yah post the pictures along the way.

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    Default hull repair kit

    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    Since Scott Canoes are built of polyester resin, it's very affordable to have some kicking around with some matt fiberglass. Polyester resin sets up so quickly too, you could literally be back on the water in a couple hours!
    Mainer set me up with a real nice (yet compact) hull repair kit. I hope to carry it always, and that it will never be used. I like my Scott hole-free, despite my treatment of it. I waited good and long to name it, but I think it (or Mainer actually) has now named it. One daughter is very artistic; I think I'll have her inscribe this name on its transom:

    "Rock Magnet"
    Last edited by FamilyMan; 10-03-2011 at 23:27. Reason: of course, maybe that my canoe's name has more to do with its owner, than the canoe itself!

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    Familyman ...

    Did you install the D-ring tie-downs you mentioned in your thread on your transom rebuild/restoration/lift? If so, how did they work?

    I'm planning on mounting a number of 1" D-rings to tie down my fuel tanks, and several 2" D-rings to secure my battery box. What has been your experience?

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    mainer-in-alaska ...

    In several entries you've mentioned your dislike of keels on freight canoes. The Scott Albany and Hudson Bay both sport substantial keels ....are they a design error? They look to me as if they do offer substantial protection to the bottom. What are the pros and cons?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    mainer-in-alaska ...

    In several entries you've mentioned your dislike of keels on freight canoes. The Scott Albany and Hudson Bay both sport substantial keels ....are they a design error? They look to me as if they do offer substantial protection to the bottom. What are the pros and cons?
    The only pro that I can think of is that on some canoes, a keel (or multiple keels) serves to strengthen the hull as easily as possible with certain materials. I do think that on certain models, they are necessary. I'll take four popular square stern models as an example.

    The Grumman 19 ft. freighter: The t-keel that's riveted down the center of this aluminum canoe is an integral and structurally supporting piece of the 19ft. freighter. Without it, the canoe would fall apart in heavy waves or abusive treatment. The canoe would be full of serious dents.

    The Scott Albany/ Hudson Bay/ and James Bay all have intergral aluminum keels that extensively line the floor of the canoe. They are glassed directly into the lay-up Why? Because these canoes are built of polyester resin and matt fiberglass, extensive reinforcement is needed for such beamy canoes. Some experienced canoe builders like James Moran (wrote the book "Building Your Kevlar Canoe) warn against using cheaper polyester resins as opposed to true epoxy resin because of the huge difference in stength. I disagree with the author no matter how many times stronger epoxy resin is as compared to polyester resin. As long as floor strengtheners are used, and the thickness of the cheaper matt fiberglass is acceptable, than a really tough boat will be the end result as Kandik, FamilyMan, RickP and others have proven. I watched FamilyMan aggressively aim his canoe at some serious obstacles without taking on any damage. Did he poke a hole in his boat? The answer is no.

    When building large/beamy freighter canoes, the expense of structural fiberglass and epoxy resin is costly. So for a business trying to make good profits, they will make the cheaper stuff work just fine.

    With shallow rivers I want my canoe to touch the bottom of the river as little as possible and IF it does, I want it to touch shallow strips of UHMW. Knowing fully well that my boat is made of RW weaved glass and epoxy, it was very rigid even after I removed the keel. Another method I used was with a labor-intensive effort to strengthen the floor from the INSIDE. It worked great! There is zero damage under my boat and no oil canning occurs. So my plan is to A. Always use epoxy resin and the strongest RW woven fiberglass that I can find and B. vacuum seal composite floor strengtheners INSIDE the boat. Labor intensive with vacuum bagging materials but very satisfying and very fun to do. I like approaching my own empty drawing board. Piper and Low rider are dealing with Keeless issues in a different manner with their royalex Esquif Cargos. I was very impressed with their ideas I might add.

    Bushrat and I tested out my boat with paddles in a small section of whitewater. He was amazed that we could paddle the boat down river with a little bit of effort (no oars used). I explained to him that the reason we were able to paddle like a normal canoe, was because there are no keels under the boat working against you with sluggish responses from the paddle. Sometimes I like to turn on top of gravel which is different than mud. In order to do this, the boat's weight shouldn't be resting on the keels.

    The waterline doesn't change with the addition of keels, they are under there to catch on rocks an inch or more deeper in the water. With certain materials mentioned above, they are an integral component providing strength to the boat.

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    mainer ...

    I assume you have seen the pictures of the Kevlar felt reinforcements kandik put on the bottom of his HB. Are they effective in your opinion? I have some 5oz/sq yd Kevlar cloth from other projects.. I'm considering using several layers of that cloth as a sacrificial layer, rather than the very coarse K-felt. Opinion?

    By the way, I was impressed with how dry the driver stays at speed because of the spray rails. Just another revelation.

    Does AOD need a surface-drive sub-forum?

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    Smile Who's driving this bus?

    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    I watched FamilyMan aggressively aim his canoe at some serious obstacles without taking on any damage. Did he poke a hole in his boat? The answer is no.
    And yet I maintain that my "Rock Magnet" aimed itself, and I just hung on for the ride. And a fine ride it was.

    Heck, those obstacles were nothing, compared to having to aim my canoe back into the big waves to return 3.5 miles back upwind to..... (Oops.... zipping lip now....) Those whitecaps were something like 3 feet high.

    Two weeks ago I talked with another forum member that visited that lodge owner, that kept me in his telescope for hours while I did that, and bailed every step of the way. Since I have not mounted my spray rails yet, every time I took 15 seconds to check my GPS, I had 10 new gallons aboard to bail. I never worried; that Scott is so stable. I think that lodge owner thought I might go under though.

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    I can see the need for a "self-bailing" canoe...maybe one with a drain plug that you could remove while underway and REPLACE BEFORE you slow the boat. Oh yes, put the plug on a chain so it won't get lost!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I can see the need for a "self-bailing" canoe...maybe one with a drain plug that you could remove while underway and REPLACE BEFORE you slow the boat. Oh yes, put the plug on a chain so it won't get lost!!
    That's too funny. I just talked to this subject 2 minutes ago, before I read what you wrote here: http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...28#post1017328

    Obviously, I do agree with you.

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    Hi Rick
    I like your pictures and I am glad to see the HB & MB come together so well Do think you could get some one to take a couple pictures of it in action.
    For the record we work with epoxy resins in fact we have developed an infusion process using kevlar and expoxy resin, with no gel coat surface and can make a 16' prospector canoe weight in as little as 38 lbs. one of the things we found out was not only is it lite weight but it is just as tough as nails. We have anumber of these canoes in rental fleets for the last 4 years and in rental the first thing you learn as an outfitter is when people rent your canoes they do not give a dam about them they just want use and abuse them. But as you said the process is very time consuming and very costly the retail price on the the Bluewater 16' Prospector built in our golden brawn with light weight aluminum trim $3150.00
    I do not think we will ever attempt to build an HB in this process for a couple reasons and first being cost I know right now it would be quite expensive, you can buy a lot of polyester rein and fiberglass for the price of one HB done in this process.
    On thing to keep in mind when you are wanting to do some reapair you can put epoxy resin on to polyester resin and it will bind. but you cannot put polyster resin on top of epoxy resin it my go hard but it will never bind.
    We have just recently purchased a roll thicker kevlar felt . our plan is to make our skid plates alot narrower so that it is covering the primary wear spots
    I really enjoy listening to all the comments from every one , you can always learn something new
    Thank you Pat

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    Hey Pat ...

    The HB and MB have been separated for the winter. The rig could have still taken a spin on the river, but it's chilly enough that no one wants to go with me. I'll have to wait 'till water is liquid next Spring to reassemble my HB/MB and take more pictures/videos. And I will, and post them here and to you.

    So I can use West Systems epoxy to make repairs or add Kevlar or Kevlar felt reinforcements, correct? I've used it with Kevlar on other projects related to dog sleds. As stated above, I admire kandik's reinforcements on his HB, and want to incorporate something similar on my boat.

    I can't speak highly enough about my experience ... only 13 hours, so far ... with my HB/MB rig. I'm a bit sad that it's time to put her away for the season.

    I'll be in touch

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    Hi Rick
    Yes you can use west system epoxy to put on kevlar felt, that is what Mark Tayor used on his HB
    call me anytime or better yet email me pat@scottcanoe.com

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