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Thread: Just want to know why!

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    Default Just want to know why!

    I would like to know why Halibut Charters are being treated like Commercial fisherman? Yet when being put out of business they can't get a Commercial fishing loan to get into another fishery. This is a shame. It looks like a one way street to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    I would like to know why Halibut Charters are being treated like Commercial fisherman? Yet when being put out of business they can't get a Commercial fishing loan to get into another fishery. This is a shame. It looks like a one way street to me!
    What other fishery that a charter operator may want to pursue would require a loan?
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    One of my friends has worked as a charter captian for the last 4 years and the changes in charter halibut fishing has cost him that job. He tried to get a loan to start gillnetting but was turned down because running a charter boat is not considered commercial fishing and to get this loan you have to show that most of your income was from commercial fishing for the last two year. So one part of the goverment considers you commercial and changes the rules and puts you out of work and another says your not commercial so you can't get the loan. Does that seem fair?

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    Whats his experience as a gillnetter?

    If a guy loses his car wash business and then applies for a loan to build motorcycles, would a prudent banker give him the loan based solely on "I worked with cars in one capacity so I must be qualified in all aspects of them"?
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
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    MGH55, Alaska's commercial fishing loan programs are intended for commercial fishermen, encouraging them to keep their vested interest in Alaska's commercial fishing industry. The program promotes predominantly resident fisheries and improvement of Alaska seafood products. The loans are not intended for just anyone to try their luck at commercial fishing, including sportfishing charter captains with no experience or vested interest in the commercial fishery.

    Nothing is stopping the charter industry from passing similar legislation creating their own loan program.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    So one part of the goverment considers you commercial and changes the rules and puts you out of work and another says your not commercial so you can't get the loan. Does that seem fair?
    Not sure where you came up with that concoction.

    First, charters are a "commercial" sport fishery in a sense that they commercially sport fish by exchanging money for recreational fishing services...pursuing, killing, landing, and transporting fish. Much different than the "commercial fishery", which is not defined by recreational or sport fishing activities. Both are commercial fisheries, but only one is defined as the "commercial fishery".

    Second, the government has not changed any rules. The same rules have always been there...Management has always had the authority to impose reductions, restrictions, limits, and controls on any user group when necessary. Charters were never guaranteed or entitled to a certain number of halibut, or uncontrolled growth in the fishery. In fact since the early 1990's when the warning was posted in the Federal Register, charters have known that restrictions were coming.

    Third, blaming the government for putting charters out of work is irresponsible. The charter industry imploded upon itself. The government did not solicit charter business to no end, cause the charter industry to grow exponentially, exceed charter harvest limits, resist limits and controls at the detriment to the resource and other users. It was not the government's actions that finally triggered management action. Charters did that all on their own.

    Finally, of course it's fair that charter operators can't take advantage of commercial fishing loans. They aren't vested in the commercial fishery. Would it be fair for an oil worker to take advantage of farm loans, or someone who has never served to take advantage of VA loans, or should disaster relief loans be available to those who were never in a disaster?

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    Thanks for the hint he should ask for a disaster relief loan! So now he is not commercial enough but to commercial. As for changing rules yes the rules have changed and to be in denial of that fact is ludicrous!!! ONE FISH UNDER 37" IS ONE BIG CHANGE, If you can't or won't admit that your colors are showing bright.

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    AlaskaHippie, He knows how to kill fish, and has been out on gillnetters it's not rocket science I know I do it. I'm sure you must know the diffrence from building car and washing them I hope! This is a State loan program so thats why I ask this question, plus I knew Grampyfish would not let me down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    AlaskaHippie, He knows how to kill fish, and has been out on gillnetters it's not rocket science I know I do it. I'm sure you must know the diffrence from building car and washing them I hope! This is a State loan program so thats why I ask this question, plus I knew Grampyfish would not let me down.
    I've also worked both Charters and Gillnetters (as well as other gear types), and while I certainly understand and empathize for your friend, the comparison you are trying to conjure up simply isn't there.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
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    I am not the one that ever said that charters are commerical, but I would expect the ones that put them in that status should admit that, and support that they should then have the same right in getting a State backed loan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    I am not the one that ever said that charters are commerical, but I would expect the ones that put them in that status should admit that, and support that they should then have the same right in getting a State backed loan.
    The Halibut is managed by the Feds, not the State. As such, seeking recompense from a body that didn't inflict the financial blow seems a bit misguided.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    Unhappy Catch-22 . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    I would like to know why . .


    Save yourself some grief . . it's a Catch-22.

    Bureaucracy is not rational, whereas self-interest can rationalize anything.

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    MGH55, charters are commercial just like any business. But they aren't the commercial fishery. The State loan program was set up through State legislation specifically for the commercial fishery. Not the charter fishery, the lodging industry, or prop repair businesses.

    It takes more than just being commercial to qualify for a commercial fishing loan. You must show a vested interest in commercial fishing. The object of the loan program is to keep existing Alaskan commercial fishermen in the business of commercial fishing in Alaska. The loan program is not intended or designed to recruit, support, and subsidize other industries.

    As for changing rules...The halibut fishery has always been subject to the rules of law, which have always authorized managment to impose reductions, limits, restrictions, and control on any user group when necessary. Those rules have not changed. Management has simply implemented them. No one has denied that the one-fish-limit and size restriction aren't changes. The argument is that those changes are a result of implementing the existing rules, not changing them. Again, charters were never guaranteed a certain number or size of fish for eternity...that rule was never there to change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    I would like to know why Halibut Charters are being treated like Commercial fisherman? Yet when being put out of business they can't get a Commercial fishing loan to get into another fishery.
    Save yourself some grief . . it's a Catch-22.

    Bureaucracy is not rational, whereas self-interest can rationalize anything.
    No, it's not a "catch-22", and the loan program is in fact rationalized, and it supports the best interests of all Alaskans.

    First, there is a clear distinction between the charter industry and the commercial fishing industry. Those distinctions are made evident not only in the differentiating mechanisms of the fisheries themselves, but by laws defining and regulating them. Catch-22 need not apply.

    Defendable rationale supporting the loan program can be found in a plethora of legitimate explanation and sensible legislative action. Irrational bureaucracy need not apply.

    The program benefits the people of Alaska economically, socially, culturally, and traditionally by encouraging and incentivizing existing Alaskan commercial fishermen to remain vested in Alaska's commercial fishery...one of the most vital industries to Alaskans. "Self-interests" need not apply.

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    Cool Government programs . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    No, it's not a "catch-22", and the loan program is in fact rationalized, and it supports the best interests of all Alaskans.

    First, there is a clear distinction between the charter industry and the commercial fishing industry. Those distinctions are made evident not only in the differentiating mechanisms of the fisheries themselves, but by laws defining and regulating them. Catch-22 need not apply.

    Defendable rationale supporting the loan program can be found in a plethora of legitimate explanation and sensible legislative action. Irrational bureaucracy need not apply.

    The program benefits the people of Alaska economically, socially, culturally, and traditionally by encouraging and incentivizing existing Alaskan commercial fishermen to remain vested in Alaska's commercial fishery...one of the most vital industries to Alaskans. "Self-interests" need not apply.
    Yes, yes, "We're from the government, and we're here to help you," and all that. There isn't a government subsidy in the world that can't be so rationalized.

    And it is a Catch-22 . . . . when you're on the outside looking in.

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    I see, so an Alaskan commercial fisherman that lives out of state can get this type of loan when a Alaska resident "Commercial Charter" can't! Ok that seems fair. Not sure where you come up with the "self-intrests" part because is it on in the best intrest to get the best loan no matter what type of commercial fisherman you are? I think he is going for the disaster relief funding

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Yes, yes, "We're from the government, and we're here to help you," and all that. There isn't a government subsidy in the world that can't be so rationalized.
    First, these are loans that must be paid back, not free government subsidies. Second, the loan funds are revolving - the program replenishes it's own funding through it's own interest and principle payments. Finally, the loan programs promotes a healthy economy by encouraging Alaskan commercial fishermen to remain vested in Alaska's commercial fishery, and in fact helps them develop and improve it. A healthy Alaskan commercial fishery not only promotes a healthy economy directly and indirectly for all Alaskans, but it provides vital social, cultural, and traditional benefits.

    Marcus, anyone can harangue with baseless petty comments. Unless that is all you are capable of, please legitimize why you believe the program is not rational.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    And it is a Catch-22 . . . . when you're on the outside looking in.
    You are pandering to your own "self-interest" comment.

    There is no "Catch-22". Either a person is a commercial fishermen who qualifies for the loan, or not. The qualifying criteria are in law, as are the differences between a charter operator and a commercial fishermen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    I see, so an Alaskan commercial fisherman that lives out of state can get this type of loan when a Alaska resident "Commercial Charter" can't! Ok that seems fair. Not sure where you come up with the "self-intrests" part because is it on in the best intrest to get the best loan no matter what type of commercial fisherman you are? I think he is going for the disaster relief funding
    A commercial charter can't get the loan no matter where he's from. Because the loan is specifically for commercial fishermen. What part about that don't you understand?

    By the way, the general requirments for the commercial fishing loans are that the applicant be an Alaskan resident for at least 2 years. As for "self-interests", again there is nothing stopping the charter industry from proposing legislation for a similar loan program.

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    Wink Trust me on this . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    . . Marcus, anyone can harangue with baseless petty comments. Unless that is all you are capable of, please legitimize why you believe the program is not rational. . .
    Yes, Grampy, I understand, really I do, trust me . . just havin' a little fun. Relax.

    All such special-interest programs can be so rationalized, and such rationalizations nearly always end up as justifiable in terms of some "greater good," e.g. The American People, Alaska Residents, the Advancement of the Human Race and other such high-falutin' abstractions. Student Loans, Small Business Loans, Commercial Fishermen Loans, whatever are all special-interest subsidies, and for the poor sucker who doesn't qualify for one reason or another, there's always the Catch-22.

    Don't take this Internet banter so seriously:

    "Do you know, to my thinking it's a good thing sometimes to be absurd; it's better in fact, it makes it easier to forgive one another, it's easier to be humble. One can't understand everything at once, we can't begin with perfection all at once! In order to reach perfection one must begin by being ignorant of a great deal. And if we understand things too quickly, perhaps we shan't understand them thoroughly. I say that to you who have been able to understand so much already and . . . . have failed to understand so much."

    —Dostoevsky, from "The Idiot"


    Chill . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus
    ...just havin' a little fun.
    Ahh. Then my apolgies for pointing out how incapable you are of answering questions, and for exposing the baseless, petty, harangue you present. My bad for thinking you were interested in a serious discussion.

    So seriously now, since you brought it up, in your own kind words please legitimize why you believe the loan program is either rational or not. And since you brought it up, give us your own explanation of what you believe the "Catch-22" is in this case. To answer MGH55's original question, what is your own response to why he thinks halibut charters are being treated like commercial fishermen?

    Oh, almost forgot....In your last post you said, "I understand" and "Trust me on this". What thing is it you claim to understand? Trust you on what?

    Thanks for the doctor's advice. I feel fine. Really. It is just my nature to take these discussion seriously. If I relax I fall asleep.

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    Unhappy Cow pies . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    . how incapable you are of answering questions, and for exposing the baseless, petty, harangue you present. . .
    Can't get there from here, Gramp, sounds like . . .
    ". . . a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing."


    Chill . . .

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