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Thread: Just say YES, to the DAMS......

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    Default Just say YES, to the DAMS......

    More Dams, Dams are safe. Dams are cost effective, Dams utilize free renewable water. Thomas Paine said, "Either give me more them dam dams, or give me fewer humans".

    Humans for low cost electric. Humans for safe, clean electric. (OK, I just enjoy tweaking the nose of the fish snobs).


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    The best off the grid set up at a remote lodge (other than chena hot springs) I've seen was a small hydro system. The water will always always run downhill. Just got to figure a way to utilize it.

    If all the fish people are against hydro, coal or gas how about geo thermal. I'm guessing this is an anti-human thing more than actually problem solving.


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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    More Dams, Dams are safe. Dams are cost effective, Dams utilize free renewable water. Thomas Paine said, "Either give me more them dam dams, or give me fewer humans".

    Humans for low cost electric. Humans for safe, clean electric. (OK, I just enjoy tweaking the nose of the fish snobs).

    Now you have done it!
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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    Unhappy Pathetic . . .

    As long as we're indulging irony, here's something I ran across in my reading this weekend . . reminds me of this so-called "discussion":


    "Nothing is easier for 'ordinary' people of limited intelligence than to imagine themselves exceptional and original and to revel in that delusion without the slightest misgiving. . . .

    "Some men have only to feel the faintest stirring of some kindly and humanitarian emotion to persuade themselves at once that no one feels as they do, that they stand in the foremost rank of culture. Some have only to meet with some idea by hearsay, or to read some stray page to believe at once that it is their own opinion and has sprung spontaneously from their own brain. The impudence of simplicity, if one may so express it, is amazing in such cases. It is almost incredible, but yet often to be met. The impudence of simplicity, this unhesitating confidence of the stupid man in himself and his talents . . [He] has no doubt that he is a genius, superior to any genius. He is so positive of this that he never questions it, and, indeed, he questions nothing."


    —from "The Idiot" by Fyodor Dostoevsky

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    As long as we're indulging irony, here's something I ran across in my reading this weekend . . reminds me of this so-called "discussion":

    "Nothing is easier for 'ordinary' people of limited intelligence than to imagine themselves exceptional and original and to revel in that delusion without the slightest misgiving. . . .

    "Some men have only to feel the faintest stirring of some kindly and humanitarian emotion to persuade themselves at once that no one feels as they do, that they stand in the foremost rank of culture. Some have only to meet with some idea by hearsay, or to read some stray page to believe at once that it is their own opinion and has sprung spontaneously from their own brain. The impudence of simplicity, if one may so express it, is amazing in such cases. It is almost incredible, but yet often to be met. The impudence of simplicity, this unhesitating confidence of the stupid man in himself and his talents . . [He] has no doubt that he is a genius, superior to any genius. He is so positive of this that he never questions it, and, indeed, he questions nothing."


    —from "The Idiot" by Fyodor Dostoevsky
    How about you just spell out in plain english, for we "'ordinary' people of limited intelligence", the point you're intending to imply, so that you don't just come across as a pompous ass like the author you're quoting?
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    Wink I'm shocked . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    How about you just spell out in plain english, for we "'ordinary' people of limited intelligence", the point you're intending to imply, so that you don't just come across as a pompous ass like the author you're quoting?
    Well! Everyone's entitled to their opinions, tiger, so if you want to opine that I'm a pompous ass, that's fine. . . .

    But Dostoevsky a pompous ass? The author of Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov a pompous ass? That's a book too far . . .

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    How did we go from dams to Dostoevsky?

    Dams have their place, even in Alaska. I would agree that developing a hydropower project in say, SE Alaska, is infinitely better than burning 10,000 gallons of fuel oil a month to generate electricity, which is how it's done in some communities in SE. Given the amount of precipatation and the topographic relief in SE, I wonder why they haven't developed more hydropower in that part of AK.

    Nevertheless, I don't believe that all dams are bad, or that (even today) someone cannot build a hydropower project that achieves the twin goals of more power with little or no impact on important natural resources, like salmon. But it's not easy, cheap, or quick. There are very few sites left where hydro can be economically developed with minimal impacts. But it can be done, and I would support hydropower development where it's feasible and environmentally acceptable. So let's not jump to the conclusion that anyone who is against a proposed hydropower project on the Kenai River (as an example) is opposed to all hydropower projects anywhere in Alaska.

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    Wink Questioning nothing . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    How did we go from dams to Dostoevsky?

    . . let's not jump to the conclusion that anyone who is against a proposed hydropower project on the Kenai River (as an example) is opposed to all hydropower projects anywhere in Alaska.
    In answer to your first question, Coho, just having a little, tongue-in-cheek fun, indulging irony so to speak.

    Speaking for myself, the only conclusion I'm jumping to, warranted I think, is that some, ostensibly in pursuit of environmental purity, are opposing further study by HEA of the proposed project on the grounds that: corporations are evil schemers; some mysterious, unnamed HEA board members have dismissed environmental concerns; we (read the "knowledgeable" people, the Illuminati, etc.) already have enough information to quash the project; and more. Pure foolishness. Such folks tout the "process" when the process accords with their opinions and self-interests but oppose the process when it's not.

    I thing Grampy said it well:


    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    I am not [necessarily] a proponent of the project. But until the hard facts are presented, the "just say NO!" campaign doesn't fly. It is wrong to imply the project doesn't meet the Kenai River Comprehenisive Management Plan, or that it will block fish movements, reduce flow for spawning, rearing, and migration, or that application for AEA monies mean the project will be constructed. At this point, that is just not true. (emphasis added)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    In answer to your first question, Coho, just having a little, tongue-in-cheek fun, indulging irony so to speak.

    Speaking for myself, the only conclusion I'm jumping to, warranted I think, is that some, ostensibly in pursuit of environmental purity, are opposing further study by HEA of the proposed project on the grounds that: corporations are evil schemers; some mysterious, unnamed HEA board members have dismissed environmental concerns; we (read the "knowledgeable" people, the Illuminati, etc.) already have enough information to quash the project; and more. Pure foolishness. Such folks tout the "process" when the process accords with their opinions and self-interests but oppose the process when it's not.

    I thing Grampy said it well:

    More character flaws coming through in your post Marcus. First, you are making the assumption that the statements are false and your understanding of the process is correct. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have never been in the process from the regulatory or consulting side as a decision maker.

    That is not some elite position it is hard cold facts of life. You need experience to speak about the charges. Having none you label those who do with pure foolish thoughts.

    Next you have no desire to understand what people are saying from their life experiences - both in Alaska and outside. You posts are nothing more than trying to bait people into thinking you have some superior position when in fact your position is just the opposite - one of ignorance of the process you are asking to go forward. Just what projects have you seen through the regulatory process to make the claim that the process is a good one? What data do you have to show that a decision cannot be made right now? Anything??? I believe you resigned from the local advisory committee because the Board of Fish process was not clean and upstanding. While not a regulatory process for a large scale project what makes you think it is any better?

    Relative to the unnamed Board of Director I told you to look up various articles on this subject and read Board members comments. This is a public forum and putting peoples names in it is not the right thing to do. You hide behind Marcus. However, again as with other topics you do not do your homework or look up Directors comments. Instead you want others to do it for you. Pretty selfish in my opinion. Directors have made the statements at a public meeting of Cook Inlet Aquaculture, in the press, and at other public gathering. I was there because I was interested in seeing and hearing the data and opinions. Funny I have never seen you at one meeting on the subject of dams. So just how are you going to participate in the decision making ??? As an uninformed citizen that you charge that others are on this subject?

    Enough Marcus, if you cannot provide some life experience in the regulatory field, have some data on the impacts of the project, or other facts relative to the subject please do not post. Saying people are foolish and then posting that personal attacks should not happen is very hypocritical in my opinion and I am sure others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Well! Everyone's entitled to their opinions, tiger, so if you want to opine that I'm a pompous ass, that's fine. . . .

    But Dostoevsky a pompous ass? The author of Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov a pompous ass? That's a book too far . . .
    have you ever given any thought to being on a few poetry and book reading forums?

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    It appears as though Washingtonians such as Maria Cantwell and a few on this forum would like to continue to treat Alaska as their colony and dictate how things should be done up here, as in the days of timber and canneries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    It appears as though Washingtonians such as Maria Cantwell and a few on this forum would like to continue to treat Alaska as their colony and dictate how things should be done up here, as in the days of timber and canneries.
    The Pebble Clean Water Act question was actually started in Alaska by Alaskans. She may be the one introducing the concept in Congress but the idea was born in Alaska. Just for the record I was not part of the group that came up with the idea.

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    Sayak - Nobody is dictating anything to anyone in Alaska. However, there are strong opinions. The folks from AK are no different. They have strong opinions just like Senator Cantwell, FishDoc, and myself. However, I agree that our opinions may seem out of place given that the good folks in Alaska have very few opinions, and even fewer strong opinions, on important issues here in Washington State. I'm with you there.

    But that's nothing new either, as you seem to suggest. Alot of folks from outside Alaska have views on Alaska that are contrary to the folks who live there. That's been the case since long before Statehood. Perhaps that's part of the price you pay to live in Alaska - everyone has an opinion on what you're doing, or trying to do.

    Move to the L48 and you won't have that problem......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    More character flaws coming through in your post Marcus. First, you are making the assumption that the statements are false and your understanding of the process is correct. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have never been in the process from the regulatory or consulting side as a decision maker.

    That is not some elite position it is hard cold facts of life. You need experience to speak about the charges. Having none you label those who do with pure foolish thoughts.

    Next you have no desire to understand what people are saying from their life experiences - both in Alaska and outside. You posts are nothing more than trying to bait people into thinking you have some superior position when in fact your position is just the opposite - one of ignorance of the process you are asking to go forward. Just what projects have you seen through the regulatory process to make the claim that the process is a good one? What data do you have to show that a decision cannot be made right now? Anything??? I believe you resigned from the local advisory committee because the Board of Fish process was not clean and upstanding*. While not a regulatory process for a large scale project what makes you think it is any better?

    Relative to the unnamed Board of Director I told you to look up various articles on this subject and read Board members comments. This is a public forum and putting peoples names in it is not the right thing to do. You hide behind Marcus. However, again as with other topics you do not do your homework or look up Directors comments. Instead you want others to do it for you. Pretty selfish in my opinion. Directors have made the statements at a public meeting of Cook Inlet Aquaculture, in the press, and at other public gathering. I was there because I was interested in seeing and hearing the data and opinions. Funny I have never seen you at one meeting on the subject of dams. So just how are you going to participate in the decision making ??? As an uninformed citizen that you charge that others are on this subject?

    Enough Marcus, if you cannot provide some life experience in the regulatory field, have some data on the impacts of the project, or other facts relative to the subject please do not post. Saying people are foolish and then posting that personal attacks should not happen is very hypocritical in my opinion and I am sure others.
    Your ad hominem abuse is irrelevant and immaterial, Nerka, to my point that the "just say no" folks are out of line at this stage in the process. And, yes, yes, I'm quite sure that you're sure you have an abundance of "life experience," "facts relative to the subject," no "character flaws," loads of "understanding," and all the other qualities and credentials I don't. But you're only one man, Nerka, and regardless of how smart you [think you] are, how qualified you [think you] are, it's not your right to decide the question of whether or not the issue warrants further study. You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are—your opinions. State your case and resist the urge to abuse me for my opinion that "just say no" is out of line at this stage of the process.

    *You "believe" wrongly. If you'd like to know why I resigned, be polite enough ask. In the meantime, resist the urge to tattle-tale out of school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are—your opinions. State your case and resist the urge to abuse me for my opinion
    Good advice for everyone to follow. I can only guess how many posts that would eliminate here in the management forum if it was applied as a rule. A lot. Most?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    The Pebble Clean Water Act question was actually started in Alaska by Alaskans. She may be the one introducing the concept in Congress but the idea was born in Alaska. Just for the record I was not part of the group that came up with the idea.
    I don't care where the question began. On the news it was stated that Ms. Cantwell is responding to the pleas of her constituents; I assume, the hundreds of WA commercial fishermen who ended up with AK limited entry permits when fishing wasn't profitable in Bristol Bay. They are now frantically running around, hyped by a massive ad campaign, because, after all, the Pebble sky is falling.
    It hearkens to an era when WA cannery owners attempted to circumvent Alaska statehood because it would mean the end of fish traps. WA and to a lesser degree CA have always tried to engineer the destiny of Alaska because their economics were at stake. That is a form of colonialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Your ad hominem abuse is irrelevant and immaterial, Nerka, to my point that the "just say no" folks are out of line at this stage in the process. And, yes, yes, I'm quite sure that you're sure you have an abundance of "life experience," "facts relative to the subject," no "character flaws," loads of "understanding," and all the other qualities and credentials I don't. But you're only one man, Nerka, and regardless of how smart you [think you] are, how qualified you [think you] are, it's not your right to decide the question of whether or not the issue warrants further study. You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are—your opinions. State your case and resist the urge to abuse me for my opinion that "just say no" is out of line at this stage of the process.

    *You "believe" wrongly. If you'd like to know why I resigned, be polite enough ask. In the meantime, resist the urge to tattle-tale out of school.
    It is not your opinion that I am challenging on- the word abuse is another loaded word you use - it is your ad hominen attack on those of us who object to this project or further question your position on an issue. Just read your last couple of posts. They were directed at me as you used the term foolish in reference to a number of my statements and posted right after my post. This last post says stop the ad hominen attack and then goes on to say no matter how smart ( you think) you are. Tell me Marcus that is not personal. It is the hypocritical nature of your posts and the condescending attitude that makes me challenge you. You and Sayak started this and now want to take the high road after your last post. Sorry that dog will not hunt. Stop the personal comments and use of the word ad hominen - your favorite word of the week - and this will stop. Post something on this project that is relevant to the project. You can have your opinion of studing more that was never in question with me. What was in question was your comments about things relevant to my and others opinion. Play fair Marcus and this will stop immediately.

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    Welcome Home Fish!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    It is not your opinion that I am challenging . . it is your ad hominen attack on those of us who object to this project . . your last couple of posts . . were directed at me . . It is the hypocritical nature of your posts and the condescending attitude that makes me challenge you. You and Sayak started this . . Stop the personal comments . .

    But I am neither for or against the project at this point, nor am I personally attacking those opposed to the project. Where'd that rabbit-trail come from?

    You, it would seem, are not only against the project but also opposed to any further study by HEA regarding its feasibility.

    I support further study if such studies are deemed warranted by the duly elected, governing board of HEA.

    That's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewhop2000 View Post
    Welcome Home Fish!!!
    Thanks, Ken. I feel like I got the batteries recharged a bit.

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