Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25

Thread: Removing a C&R King from H20

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,073

    Default Removing a C&R King from H20

    I don't get to see many fishing shows as I don't have cable. I had the opportunity to see one today while I was working out. It was a show about fishing Kings on the Nushagak (sp?). It was some Pro-staffers from Bass Pro Shops fishing out there with one of the lodges. They were catching numerous kings and removing many of them from the water to take pictures and other photo opportunities. And by removing them from the water I mean lifting them by the tail and belly above the boat and taking pictures.

    On the Kenai you would have a ticket in a second for doing that, do they have the same rule (law) about lifting King salmon out of the water on the Nushagak?

  2. #2

    Default

    If you take it out it becomes part of your dailt limit.If you release it which you can you have to stop fishing.I have seen those shows to.They brake the law all the time.Bad deal I think.

  3. #3

    Default

    I do not understand how a fish is considered "part of your daily limit" if it is removed from the water and then released. Yes, an angler is suppose to keep the fish in the water if the intent is to catch and release. If the fish is pulled from the water that would involved a ticket under the regulations right? But who would consider it part of your "bagged" limit? Maybe I missed that part in the regualtions. Please enlighten me.

  4. #4
    Member skybust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    alaska
    Posts
    2,426

    Default

    Its not part of your limit if you leave it in the water and release it you can still fish. But once its taken out of the water then it become part of your limit and you have to stop fishing.

  5. #5
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Aberdeen WA
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    skybust has it right Water_Gremlin. Lift a king just about anywhere in Alaska, and it automatically counts toward the bag limit of the guy who hooked the fish.

    I too have seen the law violated on national TV more than once, yukon.

    If it's any consolation we now have the same law here in WA state.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Kill ANY fish and it becomes part of your limit.

    However, Kings are different. Remove it from the water and it's yours. Your day of fishing is done. Period. You'll have to check the regs each and everytime you intend to fish, as regs change from year to year. But in southcentral Alaska, this is the rule.

    By the way, same holds true for catch & release steelhead on the Anchor, etc. You may NOT remove them from the water for a photo. They must stay in the water. Careful handling is the rule if you want your photo with the fish. Remove it from the water and you've broken the law.

    Read the Regs. Save money.

  7. #7
    Member AKBighorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Wasilla
    Posts
    1,244

    Default

    I have also wondered how these shows are allowed to break the law. Lifting multiple kings from the water as the law states is the same thing as retaining them as part of your limit in which is usually one per day. Considering these shows are typically using a local guide who would know what the laws are and prefer not to have his face all over national TV breaking the law my deduction is they have been granted a permit which allows such activity. However, I never have made the call to confirm my theory.

    I watched a show Sunday where they were snagging paddlefish on the Missouri River. It was interesting to see an odd prehistoric fish but wasn't particularly fun watching them snag. I realize that may be the only way to catch a filterfeeder but I didn't see the pro using any skill and thus the show lost something. Funny thing was they were talking about how much of a fight they put up, LMAO, pull any 30+lb fish in sideways and its a workout

  8. #8

    Default

    I have guided for a few of these TV shows including one for ESPN and there is no "permit" for breaking the regulations for a TV show or any other time from my experience. I had a hell of a time trying to keep the guys' fish in the water for photo's. They said they "do it all the time" (remove from water for pictures) for the fishing shows and no one had ever told them otherwise?

  9. #9
    New member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Soldotna
    Posts
    5,639

    Wink Photo junkies?

    "A few years ago, while sorting through a box of old fly fishing magazines - scanning the cover photos before placing each in its pile to keep or toss - I began to detect an interesting pattern. Curious, I set aside ten covers from the late seventies, and ten covers from the late nineties, all chosen at random.

    Not surprisingly, each of the covers from the 90's journals depicted one of the "beautiful people" draped from trendy chapeau to gravel guard in the latest (spotless) logo-beribboned apparel, tenderly holding an enormous fish (usually a salmonid) and smiling engagingly for the camera. The blotches of oil left behind by a leaky floatant bottle, the smattering of blood or fish-scales from the quick and merciful death of a bleeder, the burn marks from a cigarette falling from open lips as the angler hooks into a "big one" --- none of these were in evidence on the cover photos. But always the fish and always the posed smile.

    In contrast, the earlier covers included a distant shot of a lone angler leaving the water of a western river, a young couple holding hands-- and fly rods-- as they waded, laughing, out of a high mountain lake, a pair of parkas (little else visible) fishing from a driftboat in a snowstorm, two still-lifes of tackle, a lone fisherman framed in autumn leaves, and, finally, a placid John Voelker, crouched on a log in thick pine woods, his rod leaning against a tree, quietly smoking a cigar in the rain. Interestingly, only one of the early covers showed a fish in hand, and this was being displayed to a curious wading Schnauzer.

    I'm not certain what, if anything, this tells us about the sport itself. To the cynical, it may suggest that the magazines get a kickback from fishing tackle makers for highlighting their gear on the cover, or from the American Dental Association; either of these may be true, but, it is more likely that the magazine is responding to changes in prevailing attitudes toward the sport of flyfishing. Perhaps flyfishing is now success related --- the largest fish, or the greatest number of fish --- rather than the mere opportunity to be fishing. The word "Fishing", if we believe the magazine covers, is synonymous with "Catching", and catching is a numbers game.

    The act of fishing (not necessarily catching) has traditionally had a backdrop of "wildness" that was an intrinsic component of the day astream -- if not a beautiful natural setting, at least a sense of remoteness, a distance from other fishermen. If you must encounter another angler there was a formula that permitted each to maintain their world apart. Just a few years ago, good streamside manners bade a wet-fly angler working downstream to leave the river on sighting a fisherman working upstream, to walk high on the banks around him, and re-enter the flow at least one pool below. Of course, conversation between anglers might take place, but the very acceptance of the buffer zone that each afforded the other strengthened the sense of isolation.

    A second equally important element of fishing is liesure. Fishing offers the opportunity to step outside the timestream of faxes and emails, of conference calls and thrice-rescheduled meetings, to a place beyond time. The third item in the mix -- observation of the natural world -- depends in part on the two previous. Just as TIME is defined by SPACE and MOTION, Timeless observation is defined by the space around you, the macro/microcosm, and blissful immobility. The fisherman who has a warbler land on his rod-tip is doing something right." óReed Curry

    Last edited by Marcus; 03-27-2007 at 14:47.

  10. #10
    Moderator AKmud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Wasilla, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    3,185

    Thumbs down

    What bothers me about these "fishing" shows is how they will keep a fish out of water for 2-3 minutes while they talk about what bait/lure they used or say a word about their sponsors then finally let the fish go. It seems to me they would want to portray the ultimate in fish handling and get camera time with the fish in the water by the boat or shore and release it without lifting it or else keep it for the grill. I know bass and catfish do well out of water for a minute or two, but LOTS of species don't handle it so well, especially after they are exhausted from the fight!
    AKmud
    http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/AKmud/213700RMK1-1.jpg


    The porcupine is a peacful animal yet God still thought it necessary to give him quills....

  11. #11
    New member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Soldotna
    Posts
    5,639

    Default Question. . .

    But isn't holding fish out of water for photos routinely done on Kenai rainbows? One need only cruise the Web sites of commercial users for examples. Am I missing something?

    Last edited by Marcus; 03-27-2007 at 14:47.

  12. #12

    Default Thanks for the renewed perspective

    Marcus,

    The quote from Reed Curry is great... it truly expresses the essence of why we used to fish. It definitely seems that we, as a community of fishers, have lost perspective. It seems that it is all about putting fish in the box or getting that photo and why? Certianly the fish in the box is great table fare, but are we seeking self glorification and bragging rights instead of relaxation and solitude as we commune with nature, as we enjoy this blessed creation? I think that we sometimes forget that we live in the Last Frontier! People from around the world save for a lifetime to visit Alaska and fish.

    As a guide, I am most blessed by the guests who say, "It's about the fellowship and the experience... if we catch a trophy, well that's great, but let's have fun nonetheless." And even more so when we are able to see a moose swimming across the river or a bear fishing along with us, or the eagle soaring overhead in search of food for the eaglets who are yet restricted to the nest.

    Fishing was never designed or intended to be a "pressure" sport, rather a time to recharge the batteries, and allow the pressures of life to flow away.

    Now all that being said, I am excited to help folks hook a nice fish, and get those photo's along the boat as we release the "hawg". Or to put the fish in the box and know that the guests will be enjoying some of the best food on the planet.

    So, back to the point at hand, I believe that the fishing shows have really degraded the sport and instilled artificial expectations in their viewers. I would love to see a program that is more focused on fishing, ethics, conservation, and aesthetics rather than simply catching/killing. I am also sickened by these so-called professionals who will not only hold the fish over the rocky bank or hard deck of the boat without any kind of safety net, but also keep the fish out of the water for an unacceptable amount of time...

    Here is something to try... run for 100-200 yards as if your life depended on it, and then see how long you can hold your breath!!!

    If you do take the C&R fish out of the water, keep a net under it or hold it over the water, have the camera on and ready... it shouldn't take more than 15 seconds to get a good photo... if it takes longer than that... let the fish go!!! and wait for the next one for that photo.

    OK, enough rambling.
    Last edited by alaskanfishguides; 03-20-2007 at 10:55. Reason: added paragraph

  13. #13

    Default fish out of water

    Marcus,

    I am actually not offended by the image that you posted.... assuming that it is not during a time when it is illegal to take the fish out of the water.

    First, the fish is over the water and very close to the water, so if it slips from the hand, it will not be injured, second, I see water falling from the fish, indicating that it was just raised out of the water. I am assuming that because they got the photo so quickly, that the fish was released in a short amount of time.

    This is a great example of the proper technique to take a photo of a C&R Fish

  14. #14
    New member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Soldotna
    Posts
    5,639

    Default Changing times. . .

    Glad you liked Curry's little article. John Voelker was the author, Robert Traver, most famous for Anatomy of a Murder, but most known among anglers for his classic Trout Madness.

    As you note, we've come a long way from what Curry describes as angling. Were Voelker to write Trout Madness today, would he instead title it Dink Madness or Rat Madness?

    But I don't think we can blame the fishing shows. . . they're just pandering to the market, to the kind of anglers for whom fishing has become an addiction and obsession in pursuit of a sense of conquest, thrills, a rush, and 100-fish days.

    As for the rainbow photo, to my mind "out-of-the-water" is "out-of-the-water." What's good for a king is good for a rainbow.


  15. #15

    Default

    The regulations say

    If you intend to release a king salmon 20” of longer, you may not remove it from the water. A king salmon 20” of longer removed from the water must be retained, and becomes part of the bag limit of the person originally hooking it.

    So are you are releasing your bagged fish? The way I read it you have to retain a fish to make it part of the bag limit. If it is not retained it is not part of the limit, but a king removed from water has to be retained which would entail a fish added to your limit. Or does the fish have to be retained to be part of the limit.

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,519

    Default Water Gremlin is correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Gremlin View Post
    The regulations say




    So are you are releasing your bagged fish? The way I read it you have to retain a fish to make it part of the bag limit. If it is not retained it is not part of the limit, but a king removed from water has to be retained which would entail a fish added to your limit. Or does the fish have to be retained to be part of the limit.
    If you take a chinook out of the water you must retain it. If you do not and do not report it on your card in the Kenai then you have made multiple violations. If you release it one could also charge you with wanton waste - as it is throwing a fish away that for legal purposes is considered retained. I do not know if a case has been made on this but it is an option - maybe a test case is needed.

    Second, the rainbow picture is not the way to release a fish, any fish. While this is common and the fish swims away and the person releasing the fish thinks everything is fine - it probably is not.

    Taking it out of the water puts all types of stress on the backbone and internal organs. Fish are designed to be in water which helps supports them. If you look at the picture the flex in the fish is significant and the internal organs are being pushed together. Depending on the size of the fish this weight redistribution can cause all types of damage to the fish. It may swim away but the long term damage is not known. That is why biologist made the rule on not taking fish out of the water - that rule should be applied to all species.

    Second, fighting fish to exhaustion builds up lactic acid in the muscles and depending on water temperature this can be lethal to fish. I have seen show after show fight fish to this point in the Northwest and then say as the fish swims off everything is great - not really.

    One example with a different critter is that you can shoot a moose through the heart and it will run 100 yards before it dies. If you assume that just because it ran off it was fine you would be wrong. The same with fish.

    Every guide and knowledgeable angler should tell people if the are going to release a fish to leave it in the water, let the water support it, and if that is not the best picture then kill it and take the picture out of the water.

    The rainbow picture is not the correct way to handle fish.

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Juneau
    Posts
    2,127

    Default The poop on the Nush.

    As I sit here with a Bristol Bay Regs book in my lap.....

    "Any king salmon removed from freshwater drainages of Bristol Bay from Cape Menshikof to Cape Newenham MUST BE RETAINED, and becomes part of the bag limit of the person originally hooking it. A person who intends to release a king salmon may not remove it from the water before releasing it."

    The Bristol Bay yearly limit is five kings more than 20 inches with only four coming from the Nushagak. The Nushagak daily bag is 5 kings under 20 inches, 2 over 20 inches, only one of which may be more than 28 inches, and a total possession of only two more than 20. (but you can keep a 30 on Monday....and then again on Tuesday.) When you have caught your daily limit.....YOU CAN CONTINUE FISHING.

    So, what these guys did is a big fat NO NO but there is nothing in the regs that suggests that lifted fish that are released are to be put on your harvest record. That thought sounds like stuff I've heard of regarding wounded and lost game, but was assured it is not in the books for fish, at least for the Nush.

    Yes, they should have gotten a ticket....but the Nush is a big place and trooper presence cannot cover everything all at once. When I was up there for a week last year, I heard of plenty of folks that got a nice piece of white paper with a list of their shames and a price tag for such behavior, and a date they can talk to a judge about it. So while these guys have pulled a fast one, many others get pegged.

    Understand that the fishable areas of the Nushagak number roughly 15 to 25 miles of just the popular water, and parts of it are more than 400 yards wide....then there's the other stuff above the hooplah. From the few times I've drifted the Kenai, that river is crowded, skinny and a person with a fish on is something everybody watches.....like fishing in a fishbowl, not so on the Nush, so that's how these guys got off with it. There are many instances (me included) of other anglers approaching king lifters and reminding them of the regs and some are indeed ignorant (but not an excuse) and others just wanted a better pic.

    I would suggest you talk to the troopers with all the info you have on this incident. The no lifting kings reg has been on the Nushagak since 2000 and it's been baywide since 2003. If the show was after 2000....GOTCHA. I have heard of these picture/video situations leading to tickets. It's worth a shot.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Kenai
    Posts
    233

    Default Can anyone enlighten me?

    I watched the fishing show "Strike Zone" this winter as they were fishing out of Homer. They continued to fish on a charter boat after having boated their two halibut. As the show went on it was apparent that they were also keeping more fish than they were supposed to be able to keep. Is it legal to keep fishing after you have caught your two halibut? And is it legal for clients to catch the captains and mates fish? While i am sure it is good for business to be featured on a television show it is not good for your image if you allow things that aren't legal to go on because your attitude is it's ok..... i'm gonna be on tv! duh

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    1,956

    Default

    You can keep fishing after you catch your two halibut, there's other things to catch, such as rock fish, etc. It is illegal to party fish, you cannot catch someone else's fish, like the captain's or mate's. What the fishing shows do with the kings out of water and then releasing them should be prosecuted, we would be.

  20. #20

    Default Curry's article

    Thanks for posting that article, Marcus, I loved it. I was transported back in time to when I was a kid, to "once upon a time," when fishing was different than it is today. Then, it was about the solitude, the bonding with my dad in an otherwise rocky relationship (to this day, by far my favorite memories, and how I always will remember dad, are of us catching spotted bay bass, largemouths, or bluegill together in San Diego), and the experience of being in and truly a part of the world of nature.

    I could probably examine it if I had the time and discover what has grown into an endeavor to catch "my monies worth" if it's a charter trip, or a fill-the-freezer run to floss a quick limit of sockeye, or the quest to get "the big one," each of which describes in large part the motive to and experience of most of my fishing these days.

    I'm not knocking the above motives, nor do they exclude, necessarily, the bonding with friends or relatives, the getting away from the daily grind, or enjoying the sea or river, but they are certainly quite different from "once upon a time."

    As I am blessed with a young daughter, it is my prayer that very soon, when she's old enough to take out on a lake or to the creek, she too will discover the joys of an outing with her dad as I did, and the joy of solitude, of tuning in to the pace of a day outdoors, of the experience of the beauty of Alaska. And if I'm really lucky, she'll also turn into a better fisherman than her dad...as I did.

    Thanks again for that article.

    Nick
    "The Gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent in fishing" Assyrian Tablet 2000 B.C.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •