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    Member hooternanny's Avatar
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    Default in fractions: sometimes it's amazing how things work around here. i was doing some

    in fractions: sometimes it's amazing how things work around here. i was doing some math home work in fractions.

    JUST KIDDING. i was actually reading and found this artilce on a possible merger with nana and nova gold for a ambler mine project. i learned a lot about the possibilities and concerns of the project. part of the article mentions the road access that may occur. i understand the resistance by native peoples who fear the loss of their traditional way of life. in particular hunting and fishing.

    while discussing the topic recently with several people it seems the opinion's it's not a question of if, only when. when the people in villages are ready to allow modernization. seems that way of life in the villages is going away. sooner or later. like it or not. i have heard this from both whites and natives and haven't found any other ethnicities and people i have spoken with tend to believe that the native culture, or atleast the traditional life style is doomed. young people leave the villages.

    considering population, it is a good idea to push that regions culture forward. i know that this is native land indigenously. i also believe that a better standard of living is a mix of the two. i hope it is time for a new fraction of alaska to be sliced off road wise. go north and west is always best. and i am glad native leaders are involved in the process, they own one of the comapnies. after reading the article do you think this may really happen?

    what are your thoughts? on the mine, the road, a rail, and a culture loss? is their culture ready for a road?

    http://www.alaskajournal.com/stories...nlmponmp.shtml
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    If the world goes in the tank everyone will be looking for a old native to hang out with that knows the old ways.Town folks that think they can make it on the land because they can shoot a deer or catch a fish don't have a clue what it really takes to make it.Myself I am seeing small inroads of things going back and youth embracing the old ways.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Once upon a time, everyone's ancestors were indigenous people somewhere or other. Most history talks about the disruptions from new technologies, but rarely talks about the major disruptions caused by roads. Yet the truth remains that all throughout history, all throughout the world, new roads messed things up for the local people. The fact that they adapted (or died) doesn't mitigate the fact that great cultural losses occurred.

    The economics of the current situation will probably delay any road, but whenever it eventually goes in, the traditional ways will probably suffer a major loss. I don't agree that it's "a good idea to push that regions culture forward" or that modernization provides a better standard of living. I hope it takes a long, long time before the road goes in and destroys the "north and west is always best" part of the state!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Once upon a time, everyone's ancestors were indigenous people somewhere or other. Most history talks about the disruptions from new technologies, but rarely talks about the major disruptions caused by roads. Yet the truth remains that all throughout history, all throughout the world, new roads messed things up for the local people. The fact that they adapted (or died) doesn't mitigate the fact that great cultural losses occurred.

    The economics of the current situation will probably delay any road, but whenever it eventually goes in, the traditional ways will probably suffer a major loss. I don't agree that it's "a good idea to push that regions culture forward" or that modernization provides a better standard of living. I hope it takes a long, long time before the road goes in and destroys the "north and west is always best" part of the state!
    We successfully fought "the road" to Cordova tooth and nail when Hickle was pushing for it. Now the cruise ship industry pimps the sound like Leroy does w/ a fresh batch Chech teenagers.Progress, you can fight it but you can't stop it. I heard the other day that there are actually more people living on this earth than have died since the beginning of time. That scared the hell outta me!





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    here is another link, some 3 billion for the full "road to nome project."

    http://www.adn.com/2010/01/26/111174...7-billion.html

    i just can't help but wonder when considering speciifically some of the history between whites and natives particular to ak, it's not anything like the past in the lower 48 (for those who don't know)

    and, the fact the native claims settlement act has had a generation of absorbtion and maturity, and that those native corporations as of last year ( according to alaska business monthly ) 42 of the top 49 companies private employers companies in ak. plus the idea that a native corp is poised to be a partner in it.

    also an article from contractor magazine a few years ago where dave cruz was pushing the idea that this was the project to persue, and the mininng industry was the answer to the future of jobs, or something like that.

    the ambler mine studies going on now orginally posted mentions about half of the workforce out there now are share holders, and i saw the same working for doyon limited last winter in prudhoe, lots of shareholders working.

    i know it is a touchy subject, but even the Joe miller debacle that wound up a write in for murkowski who was over half funded by native corporations from the start, shows me who is to some degree flexing some muscle and running at least part of the show here in ak, that would be the native corporations............and i like that fact that we have that. virtually all other states are less fortunate and don't have the luxury of having that indigenous voice.

    as amigo said most "peoples" have no real clue what it takes, to intimately know the plants and animals uses historically/medicinally. i for one feel greatful to live here and in this time, and would like to be a part of the slicing off of a new fraction of alask;, not the same as building during a war effort, but a road by/for and wanted by the peoples development. i can only imagine driving that 500 miles of alaska, and it's a drive i'd love to take someday-
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    Unfortunately, in the past building a road may have "doomed" lifestyles. Today, as participants in the information age, we should realize that it wasn't the physical road that changed the lifestyle but access to other lifestyles. We are supplying it in spades to the bush, Internet and cell phones.
    Saying the road will destroy the culture is like crying over spilt milk - it is already gone.
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    in fractions are what the mods give me when I call people baaaaad names
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    Interesting thread, hooternanny, and questions, appreciate the post.

    Important to recognize a few things. First, I wouldn't confuse and conflate Native "corporations" with Native people or the will of the local Native communities. The Native corps are not an "indigenous voice" really, and in some cases they are exact opposite of that in terms of what shareholders may want. Typically that is seen with development issues like this, where the villages may disagree with what the corp wants in terms of development of Native lands.

    Secondly, as far as the "culture forward" stuff, the question has always been:
    How do Native cultures adapt to non-Native ways and culture, take on those ways but at the same time still retain their own culture and traditions?

    If you're really interested in this kind of stuff, I highly recommend you pick up Art Davidson's book, Does One Way of Life Have to Die so Another can Live?. It's a good work re the Yupik peoples and how this question plays out in the real world after ANCSA and ANILCA.

    This has been the dilemma for many Native peoples. Naturally as non-Native culture and practices are instilled more and more, things will change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. What is very interesting is how individual villages or regional Native peoples have dealt with this. The Yupik are a unique example really, how is it that so many of the younger generation of Yupiks still speak the Yupik language? Whereas you hardly see that at all among the other Native cultures. And what does that mean as far as culture forward while still retaining their Native traditions and way of life?

    Regarding roads, what isn't often mentioned is that these roads, whether it be the Umiat road, or a road to the Ambler district, will likely not allow public access. I would like to see the shareholder survey question that led to 77&#37; of Nana shareholders supporting roads now whereas in 1989 the majority of shareholders were opposed to roads. That doesn't jibe with some other studies and surveys I've read. Maybe there was a caveat in the question regarding public access (?)

    Why a lot of Native villages oppose roads is because of the (valid) fear that they will bring more hunters and more development into the country more easily. And that use will then spread from those roads substantially via ORVs, boats etc. Yes, it's much more expensive to live in Kotz and other rural villages without road access, but with that comes a trade off too that keeps a lot of competition out for the subsistence resources.

    As far as roads bringing more cultural change, I really don't see that happening because the changes going on and that have gone on have already happened sans roads, tv and internet and phone and planes and schools and sports have already brought those changes on big time.

    But still the Native "way of life" has not completely gone away, even in the face of many of the younger generation leaving the villages for more economic and social opportunities in the cities. And as long as the whales and fish and moose and caribou are still available to harvest I don't see it going away. Subsistence and having lands to carry out those subsistence activities is thee major bond that keeps it together for the most part I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fullbush View Post
    We successfully fought "the road" to Cordova tooth and nail when Hickle was pushing for it. Now the cruise ship industry pimps the sound like Leroy does w/ a fresh batch Chech teenagers. Progress, you can fight it but you can't stop it.
    Cordova benefited immensely from the Copper River & Great Northwestern. Your fight against the Copper River Highway wasn't your finest hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Regarding roads, what isn't often mentioned is that these roads, whether it be the Umiat road, or a road to the Ambler district, will likely not allow public access.
    Another exceptional post bushrat, very well stated!

    I really don't remember the history of the Haul Road opening to the public. When did the road to Deadhorse first start allowing public access? In other words, how long did it remain restricted access? And consequently, how long might it be before new roads opened to the inevitable public pressure for access?

    Regardless of any agreements made with village residents and shareholders, I imagine it will be exceptionally difficult to restrict public access for very long, since the roads would be built with public money on public land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boomerang View Post
    Cordova benefited immensely ...
    Who exactly benefited? Development always has winners and losers, and clearly not everyone benefited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Originally Posted by boomerang
    Cordova benefited immensely ...
    Who exactly benefited? Development always has winners and losers, and clearly not everyone benefited.
    The city of Cordova was founded by the creation of the Copper River and Great Northwestern:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordova,_Alaska

    Cordova was founded as a result of the discovery of high-grade copper ore at Kennecott, north of Cordova. A group of surveyors fromValdez laid out a town site and Michael James Heney purchased half the land for the terminus of the Copper River and Northwestern Railway after determining that Katalla was a poor harbor.[2] In 1790 the inlet in front of the current Cordova townsite was named Puerto Cordova by Spanish explorer Salvador Fidalgo. Heney named the new town Cordova after it, although the inlet was later renamed theOrca Inlet.[3] Heney and his crew held a brief ceremony to organize the town on March 26, 1906. A week later crews arrived to begin work on the railroad. The first lots in the new town site, which make up the heart of present-day Cordova, were sold at auction in May 1908. As the railroad grew, so did the town. Eventually schools, businesses, a hospital, and utilities were established. After the railroad was completed Cordova became the transportation hub for the ore coming out of Kennecott. In the years 1911 to 1938, more than 200 million tons of copper ore was transported through Cordova.[2]


    Well after the mine closed in 1938, the railroad right-of-way was turned over to the state. That right-of-way was designated as the Copper River Highway. It remains so designated even though it is overgrown in its mid-section between the Allen River and Uranatina River. In essence, it's the "highway to nowhere", thanks to those who block development.

    C'mon, you knew that, didn't you?

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    I think it was Aldo Leopold who said that the greatest killer of wilderness was access. We've invented some new tools and methods of access since those words were penned, however the concept still rings true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    I think it was Aldo Leopold who said that the greatest killer of wilderness was access.
    I wouldn't say "killer". Perhaps temporary takeover. Even a huge metropolis can (and will) be retaken by the wilderness.:



    The Great Northwestern & Copper River Railroad stopped running in 1938. It was an overgrown trail well before 1970. Nearly a half of it's original right-of-way is now a National Park. Even it's old structures are considered historical treasures:


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    But is it really a traditional subsistance life style when only a portion of the diet comes from wild game, hunting is done by non-traditional ways, and much of the animlas that were previously got utilized for food and clothing are now wasted?

    A subsistance lifestyle also had one component that is thankfully now absent: famine. When the game was scarce for whatever reason people simply starved to death. A susistance life style can only support a limited number of people - modern civilization has changed all that and people can utilize more of their time for things other than hunting for food.

    Modern civilization may not be all that it is cracked up to be- but then neither is the old ways. For myself- I'm glad I'm alive today rather that 1000 years ago and I suspect you are also.

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Interesting thread, hooternanny, and questions, appreciate the post.

    Important to recognize a few things. First, I wouldn't confuse and conflate Native "corporations" with Native people or the will of the local Native communities. The Native corps are not an "indigenous voice" really, and in some cases they are exact opposite of that in terms of what shareholders may want. Typically that is seen with development issues like this, where the villages may disagree with what the corp wants in terms of development of Native lands.

    Secondly, as far as the "culture forward" stuff, the question has always been: How do Native cultures adapt to non-Native ways and culture, take on those ways but at the same time still retain their own culture and traditions?

    If you're really interested in this kind of stuff, I highly recommend you pick up Art Davidson's book, Does One Way of Life Have to Die so Another can Live?. It's a good work re the Yupik peoples and how this question plays out in the real world after ANCSA and ANILCA.

    This has been the dilemma for many Native peoples. Naturally as non-Native culture and practices are instilled more and more, things will change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. What is very interesting is how individual villages or regional Native peoples have dealt with this. The Yupik are a unique example really, how is it that so many of the younger generation of Yupiks still speak the Yupik language? Whereas you hardly see that at all among the other Native cultures. And what does that mean as far as culture forward while still retaining their Native traditions and way of life?

    Regarding roads, what isn't often mentioned is that these roads, whether it be the Umiat road, or a road to the Ambler district, will likely not allow public access. I would like to see the shareholder survey question that led to 77&#37; of Nana shareholders supporting roads now whereas in 1989 the majority of shareholders were opposed to roads. That doesn't jibe with some other studies and surveys I've read. Maybe there was a caveat in the question regarding public access (?)

    Why a lot of Native villages oppose roads is because of the (valid) fear that they will bring more hunters and more development into the country more easily. And that use will then spread from those roads substantially via ORVs, boats etc. Yes, it's much more expensive to live in Kotz and other rural villages without road access, but with that comes a trade off too that keeps a lot of competition out for the subsistence resources.

    As far as roads bringing more cultural change, I really don't see that happening because the changes going on and that have gone on have already happened sans roads, tv and internet and phone and planes and schools and sports have already brought those changes on big time.

    But still the Native "way of life" has not completely gone away, even in the face of many of the younger generation leaving the villages for more economic and social opportunities in the cities. And as long as the whales and fish and moose and caribou are still available to harvest I don't see it going away. Subsistence and having lands to carry out those subsistence activities is thee major bond that keeps it together for the most part I think.
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    Okay boomerang, I'll respond but I'm not willing to get into a "pissing match" with you, I'd rather just agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by boomerang View Post
    C'mon, you knew that, didn't you?
    Yeah I knew that, but actually, you didn't answer my question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Who exactly benefited? Development always has winners and losers, and clearly not everyone benefited.
    You claimed that "Cordova benefited immensely" but Cordova is a city, not a person. My question was not what benefits accrued from development, but rather "who exactly benefited" because it seems pretty obvious that not everyone shared in the (rather unevenly distributed) benefits.

    In general, mining tends to benefit the miners but can negatively impact the culture of local Native communities. Clearly individual Native people can benefit economically from jobs (or share dividends) but this does not mitigate the cultural impact on communities.

    In the case of Cordova, the mine owners (Kennecott Corp owned by Guggenheim and Morgan) accrued the most benefits (access to $207 million worth of ore), the project leaders accrued the second most benefits (MJ Heney was paid more than $250,000 as the CR&NW contractor, plus wages, plus he owned half of early Cordova), and of course the railroad crews and miners accrued some benefits (primarily wages). However, not everyone was a winner, and the Eyak people were especially heavily impacted by the development.

    Quote Originally Posted by boomerang View Post
    The city of Cordova was founded by the creation of the Copper River and Great Northwestern:
    Sorry but this is not quite accurate. The Eyak people were the primary inhabitants of the Copper River Delta, and Cordova was built on the site of Orca, the last of their four main villages. The village of Orca first had an influx of Americans coming to work in two local salmon canneries, then another influx of miners, before MJ Heney "organized" the existing town as the city of Cordova in 1906. The combination of disease, competition for salmon, village land grab, and loss of cultural autonomy decimated the Eyak population. I don't see any benefit.

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    Member fullbush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post

    Sorry but this is not quite accurate. The Eyak people were the primary inhabitants of the Copper River Delta, and Cordova was built on the site of Orca, the last of their four main villages. The village of Orca first had an influx of Americans coming to work in two local salmon canneries, then another influx of miners, before MJ Heney "organized" the existing town as the city of Cordova in 1906. The combination of disease, competition for salmon, village land grab, and loss of cultural autonomy decimated the Eyak population. I don't see any benefit.
    Thankyou for this awesome post Seraphina but Eyaks demise started when the Tlingits found them. Mr Heney and the gang finished them off





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    [QUOTE=Seraphina;1002401]
    In general, mining tends to benefit the miners but can negatively impact the culture of local Native communities. Clearly individual Native people can benefit economically from jobs (or share dividends) but this does not mitigate the cultural impact on communities.
    QUOTE]

    minning?? i understand you did not say it benifits "only miners", but to say mining tends to benift the miners is pretty weak for what it does, what it is (mining).

    many don't realize what all of mining is.. in fact without it- our conversation here now would not be possible... now whatever you do next- sip coffee, comb hair, wipe end- there is likely a component of mining involved in either the good in use or how it was manufactured. and fact is that mining benifts virtually everyone, perhaps 1,000's of times a day.

    then you say -"it does not mitigate the cultural impact"....i kinda agree and disagree too, so safe to say "huh" on that one
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    seraphina,

    i think when 2 cultures are absorbed, the surviving individuals become better off for it. therefore i also disagree with you on your statement about cultural impact mitigation. i do agree that the economic impact does not off set ( or mitigate ) for a cultural extinction; further' that cultural extinction may already have ocurred as others have mentioned, also some ways will never die- as long as certain things remain. a product of all culture is to- at times -die, or roll with change.

    a road to nome that could possibly lead to a continental connection at the bearing sea, and in effect link the eastern and western world as one, perhaps speed rail goods.... maybe a race with the rusian's to link the world overland is in order. we could be a part of litterally bringing the world together.

    the demand for goods has been exponentially increasing as human rights and living conditions across the planet are gettingbetter and better to achieve daily new all time highs. and, from a global logistical perspective alaska's road to nome is a logical choice. furthermore, the true original americans (the natives)-some will poop there pants on that one- they are land owners to some of the most lucrative "highway frontage" property that will ever be, imo.

    bigger than a gas line or a susitna dam or a pebble mine, the road to nome is the biggest one. and i wish our culture "modern alaskan's of today" could get together the cahoney's to do something of real significant's in our time, for our furture, and for the betterment of everyone
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    I have to wonder who was before the Eyaks and got "finished off" so the Eyaks could get their land.

    Cultures and tribes have came and gone since the beginning of time. I have to agree with hootenany - the survivors from both the winners and losers are better off in the long haul. In the short run, however, there is indeed some nasty suffering.

    Quote Originally Posted by fullbush View Post
    Thankyou for this awesome post Seraphina but Eyaks demise started when the Tlingits found them. Mr Heney and the gang finished them off
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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