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Thread: the first flight. ground speed or free fall?

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    Member hooternanny's Avatar
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    Default the first flight. ground speed or free fall?

    i've been reading some interesting information on birds, the dinosaurs that they are.

    they're feet show the reptilian history in evolution as you have probably seen the scales, talons and webbed elovutional developments., but i had no idea that they're feathers (the thing that actually qualifies a bird as a bird is its feathers), the feathers are derived from scales as well. the way the feathers are confiquired similar to tree to catch, in this case air.

    but the first actual flight! the first time something actually flew. some believe flight evolved as a result of enough ground speed. like the ostrich run. others believe it was the develpoment of a glider, like the flying squirrel coming down from the trees.

    has any of you on the forums here ever really thought about the first flight? and if so, which do you think it was. ground speed OR free fall? and why?

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    Member hooternanny's Avatar
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    me, i think it has to be free fall..............then, i think definately ground speed.
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    Birds flew because they were created to fly. It was not an error, or mistake capitalized upon.

    Not to sound rude because I honestly am not trying to be, but you live in interior Alaska and you still think life evolved from a cell in puddle of boiling hot water devoid of any thought or consideration?

    Of all the places in the world to prove a creator, I thought Alaska was that place.

    Btw, they have dug up dinosaurs with a full set of "hair,skin and flesh tissue". Many times. I know its not in all the newspapers or on the tv, but the information is there if you look for it.

    Strange a animal that died "100 million years ago" would still have hair, muscle, blood and bone.

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    Faster running by reducing weight carried by the running reptile using lift.

    Insulation and flight were bonus, and evolution filled many niches with featherd animals taking advantage of these.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruceGoose View Post
    Birds flew because they were created to fly. It was not an error, or mistake capitalized upon.

    Not to sound rude because I honestly am not trying to be, but you live in interior Alaska and you still think life evolved from a cell in puddle of boiling hot water devoid of any thought or consideration?

    Of all the places in the world to prove a creator, I thought Alaska was that place.

    Btw, they have dug up dinosaurs with a full set of "hair,skin and flesh tissue". Many times. I know its not in all the newspapers or on the tv, but the information is there if you look for it.

    Strange a animal that died "100 million years ago" would still have hair, muscle, blood and bone.
    "The information is there if you look for it?" Got a link to a respected scientific journal that has that information? Mastodon/Wooly Mammoth's found in ice? Yes. 100 million year old dinosaur meat found "many times?" No. So are you making a claim that dinosaurs didn't exist millions of years ago?

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooternanny View Post
    i've been reading some interesting information on birds, the dinosaurs that they are.

    they're feet show the reptilian history in evolution as you have probably seen the scales, talons and webbed elovutional developments., but i had no idea that they're feathers (the thing that actually qualifies a bird as a bird is its feathers), the feathers are derived from scales as well. the way the feathers are confiquired similar to tree to catch, in this case air.

    but the first actual flight! the first time something actually flew. some believe flight evolved as a result of enough ground speed. like the ostrich run. others believe it was the develpoment of a glider, like the flying squirrel coming down from the trees.

    has any of you on the forums here ever really thought about the first flight? and if so, which do you think it was. ground speed OR free fall? and why?
    My vote goes to the reptilian glider category. The recent discovery that a species of tree Camelion is able to use it's tail and body to steer, maneuver and control speed as it falls, similar to what human skydivers are learning to do, offers a clue. It is likely that this type of reptilian ability evolved into the ability of forward propulsion and true flight with the corresponding evolution of scales to feathers. We have already proven that current day chickens can be made to revert back to an earlier evolutionary trait and grow teeth with the simple flip of a DNA switch. It is likely that the switch from scales to feathers is equally simple. All the DNA switches for these evolutionary traits are not so far gone as we once thought. The encoding still exists in the DNA, just waiting for the necessary prompt to switch it on or off.
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    God created it how it was supposed to be. in gneiss he said he created "the fowl of the air" "the fish of the sea" and the "beasts of the field" and "every living thing that creeps on this earth" that means God make birds that fly....in the air. And the things such as the beasts of the field, that would be moose, rabbits and lions, the thins that creep on this earth, that means small critters such as lizards and snakes and such things This fish of the sea, thats it is pretty self explanatory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    The encoding still exists in the DNA, just waiting for the necessary prompt to switch it on or off.
    And just who do you think wrote the code for DNA? Oh yeah, evolution certainly does happen... by design. ;)
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    And just who do you think wrote the code for DNA? Oh yeah, evolution certainly does happen... by design. ;)
    Apparently, it's a question of who you think wrote it. I don't believe I raised the question.
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    [QUOTE=spruceGoose;1048375]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ino-mummy.html

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=106229723

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...saur-skin.html

    The sites you post discuss fossil finds 100 million years plus old. The "actual skin" that has been found "many times" is not skin. It is fossilized skin:

    Writing in the science journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B,Manning says the skin isn't actually skin anymore it was mineralized in a rare confluence of circumstances.The hadrosaur, a 25-foot-long, duckbilled plant eater, died and was quickly covered by water and silt. The mix of chemicals in the water and the dinosaur's own body allowed the quick buildup of calcium carbonate, which enveloped and invaded the skin. Essentially, the skin turned to stone, but kept its form and texture, like a freeze-dried glove. "You slice through the skin," says Manning, "and you can see original cell boundaries that have been locked in the calcium carbonate cement of this remarkable fossil."

    What the scientists are finding is fossilized/mineralized stuff, including fossilized proteins and cells, but not the actual "stuff."

    To the original posting, I would guess flight evolved from a combination of successful behaviors like you see in road runners. They run-glide-flap-glide.

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    if there was evolution wouldn't I have evolved into a wiser man and sold my snow machine by now??????
    Eccleasties 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, There for the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.

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    Naw... you're thinking behavior modification, which is a short term thing. Evolution is a million-year process that was designed into the creation of DNA.
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    Ah, the old arboreal (from the trees down) or cursorial (from the ground up) debate. Always an interesting topic to discuss. I think the first question that must me addressed is not how did flight originate, but are birds and reptiles really related. Well, let's look at the facts for a second.

    First of all, birds are warm blooded (Endoderms), and Reptiles are cold-blooded (Ectotherms).
    Secondly, birds have a 4-chambered heart like mammals, and most reptiles have a three-chambered heart (with the exception of the order Crocodilia).
    Third, birds have hollow bones (an adaptation that allows them to fly and is also connected to their respiratory system), and Reptiles do not.
    Fourth, birds do not have lungs they have an air sac respiratory system, and reptiles have a bellows type of lung that is more similar to mammals only lacking a muscular diaphragm.
    Fifth, birds have feathers, and reptiles do not. Even though claims have been made that reptiles have had feathers (archeopteryx, microraptor etc. were birds with teeth), no true fossil has been found demonstrating reptiles ever had any sceathers (scales modified into feathers).

    I could probably go on and on about all the differences that are rarely mentioned or addressed by evolutionary biologists, but the bottom line is, this is hardly a set in stone guaranteed proven fact. It is a theory and until proven otherwise it needs to be addressed first.

    Now, to talk about the origin of flight, we first would have to clarify which origin are we referring to. Because along with birds, there are other members of the animal kingdom that have the ability to fly. For example mammals (bats), insects, flying fish etc.

    Let's assume for a minute that the ability to fly is a characteristic that was developed by evolution (natural selection over millions of years), how exactly would this work?

    Well for starters, the development of the feather (in the case of birds only) would have to occur. The first question that would have to be addressed is why? What good is 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, and 7/8ths of a feather? Because in order for that feather to have developed over millions of years by natural selection, there would be undoubtedly thousands if not millions of transitional forms of feathers that would all be serving a purpose other than flight.

    Some claim that the contour feather (which is the feather used for flight) would have evolved from a down feather (which is a feather that is used for insulation) or a filoplume feather (which is a feather that is used for sensory purposes), but a down feather, a filoplume feather, and a contour feather are completely different in structure and function. So how did they evolve into the contour feather? What would be the driving purpose or adaptive value for changing a filoplume feather or a down feather into a contour feather.

    And secondly, how exactly does a scale change into a feather? There would have to be countless millions of intermediate forms of sceathers. My question is where is the beef? Where is the evidence for such sceathers?

    I could go on and on with these arguments, but I am sitting down for dinner/late lunch with my family and I don't really have time. But the bottom line is, if you hadn't noticed, I am a skeptic of both the arboreal and cursorial hypothesis for the origin of flight.

    The bottom line is faith is the evidence of fossils unseen and the evidence of missing links hoped for...

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhack Jack View Post
    The bottom line is faith is the evidence of fossils unseen and the evidence of missing links hoped for...
    The above is an inarguably true and correct statement, in that "faith", by definition, is a firm belief in something for which no proof exists.

    Science on the other hand, is an inherently evolutionary process. Theories are eventually proven or disproved based on factual evidence.

    Inexplicably, some people maintain faith, even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence contrary to their beliefs; such as some peoples faith that the Earth is flat.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Inexplicably, some people maintain faith, even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence contrary to their beliefs; such as some peoples faith that the Earth is flat.
    Alrighty then... how about some evidence that there is anyone out there who believes that the Earth is flat.
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    Alrighty then... how about some evidence that there is anyone out there who believes that the Earth is flat.
    http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/i...d=48&Itemid=65

    History of the Flat Earth Society
    The modern age of the Flat Earth Society dates back to the early 1800s, when it was founded by Samuel Birley Rowbotham, an English inventor. Samuel Rowbotham's Flat Earth views were based largely on literal interpretation of Bible passages....
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    The above is an inarguably true and correct statement, in that "faith", by definition, is a firm belief in something for which no proof exists.

    Science on the other hand, is an inherently evolutionary process. Theories are eventually proven or disproved based on factual evidence.

    Inexplicably, some people maintain faith, even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence contrary to their beliefs; such as some peoples faith that the Earth is flat.
    My point exactly. Some people do blindly cling to their faith. Like the fact that 150 years after the publication of the Origin of Species, the missing links still have not been found, and yet some people fail to revise their hypothesis, even in light of the overwhelming evidence.

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    OK, so you found one cult worshiper who thinks the Earth is flat based on nonsense published by some British wacko in the 1800's. I'll give you that one. I suppose that if all minute examples have to be considered, you can find a couple mentally ill people on this planet who believe in any particular nonsense that you can come up with. There are folks who believe in vampires and werewolves, but I'd hardly hold them up as an example of "faith".
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/i...d=48&Itemid=65

    History of the Flat Earth Society
    The modern age of the Flat Earth Society dates back to the early 1800s, when it was founded by Samuel Birley Rowbotham, an English inventor. Samuel Rowbotham's Flat Earth views were based largely on literal interpretation of Bible passages....
    Too bad ol' Sam forgot to read Isaiah 40:22 which says "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers".

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