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Thread: Let me ask the non-paid endorsed experts

  1. #1
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default Let me ask the non-paid endorsed experts

    I want to buy a quality canoe. I've been doing my research and seems that everywhere I go one maker contradicts the other maker, the material is better than theres, this resin is better than that --- back and forth, back and forth. Which leads me (the average guy) not knowing which to lay my money down on.

    The canoe will be used mainly for hunting and fishing. Two guys plus gear.

    I live in N.D., so driving to pick up the "right" canoe isn't an issue. I've checked out Souris River's kevlar canoes http://www.redrockstore.com/. These folks are close so I won't have to pay for shipping. These folks seem to have the holy grail of canoes (at least according to their advertisements). They are pricey (2,000-2,500) for their flagship the "Quetico 17". I don't mind paying the money for a quality canoe, but are these canoes (kevlar), and canoes like them, worth twice as much?????

    I also like the idea of a motorable canoe. I'm also leaning heavily towards the Old Town Predator SS150 http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/canoes/h...tor_ss150.html. Some will say if you want a boat, buy a boat, if you want a canoe, then buy a canoe. What is wrong with both????

    I'm sure I will get differing opinions, but what is "too much" and which ones should I avoid. Remember, I'm not rich, but I don't mind paying for quality. I believe that 2,500 is my limit on what I want to fork out for a canoe. I don't want to end up paying for hype, or name. I'm not a traditionalist, or a die-hard canoer. I just want a quality boat, at a quality price, to fit my hunting and fishing requirements.....any suggestions?
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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    I think the ift thing you need to do is ecde if you want a squsre stern for a motor. If you do I think thet eliminates the Kevelar boats (at least I haven't seen any).
    If you DON'T want square stern, then the next question is how much portaging will you be doing? That's where the Kevelar is nice due to reduced weight. If you won't be packing it a lot then there are probably better alternatives (more durable) that will also cost substantially less. Will many of these it's also possible to attach a temporary motor mount (on & off in about 5 min.) that puts the motor to the side at the rear for occassional use
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

  3. #3
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default this is my dilema

    and therein lies the delima...

    The square stern canoes are much heavier, making it more advantageous to attach the motor. The use of a motor will allow more cargo weight without paddling fatigue. The kevlars are lighter, possibly negating the need for a motor because of their faster speed and easier portage capability. From what I've read, they are designed to be less resistant on the water, so they are easier to paddle with cargo. The motor capable canoes will be more versitile in big water areas for me. I will have lake and stream usage (no whitewater). I really don't think I'll be doing a lot of portaging. What little I may be doing, would be readily accomplished by the two of us.

    Basically what I'm saying is, I can make both work based on the pros/cons of each. If I'm getting more boat for my money with the predator types... then I'll go with them... and vise/versa for the kevlar canoes. This is why I'm asking the question of which is the most canoe for the money based on the experience of hunters who have used both, or love one over the other.
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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    Member Spanman's Avatar
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    Default Square stern

    I currently have a Scanoe with square stern that I love! Yes it's heavy, but since my wife only pisses me off when she tries to help, I move it around by myself (136lbs) from getting it loaded to loading it up. It can handle Rivers, lakes, and streams and has proven it can hadle rough water and rocks. It is a little slow compared to a mad river canoe or kevlar but I can handle 900lbs with the motor (4hp) and push thru the water no problem. With the attachment of the motor it opens more oppurtunities and yes you might have to take a liitle chance, I used it to dipnet the kenai a few years ago (which spurned a few people here to call me nuts) but that's they way my Grandfather did it. I've used it on lakes for trolling and when I get tired of paddleing I drop the motor and go, which uses next to no gas and can almost plane out the boat. I wouldn't trade it for anyother canoe, and I've had a few days experiance in canoes.

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    It depends a lot on your area. I really don't see any advantage for the money spent on Kevelar for what you describe as your use. A Royalex would work fine for half the price. For my primary use (small lakes in a canoe trail system connected by portages, & small rivers in the same system) a motor would be of no value so I would skip a square stern. If I need a motor for a special trip somewhere I'll use a temp. mount. Your use sounds different than mine.
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

  6. #6
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default square stern

    Thanks for the info.

    Seems the square stern will fit the bill for me better, and I can outfit it with a motor for the price of a stripped kevlar...

    I've been in scanoes, I like them, never had a problem with'em (never owned one though, or done a multiple day trip with one). Besides the Coleman Scanoe and the Old Town Predator, is there any other square sterns that are reputable (i.e. that you would trust to take into the backcountry)????

    Any other experience in extended hunting/fishing trips using these square sterns for your transportation????
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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    I'm not an expert and have not used all the types of canoes out there. I have used them a lot, all the way from old aluminium canoes to the more modern ones. I really like the Old Town canoes and have two of them. The cargo capacity is good and they handle well. They are also durable, I watched one get wrapped around a rock to where the ends almost touched. Once we got it off the rock, it came back to almost its original contour and was used for the rest of the trip with no problems. (There's still gear on the bottom of that river however )

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    It's hard to beat the old square stern Grumans (aluminum) for toughness.
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    For whatever it is worth I too would go with the square stern. The 17' discovery sport is what I would go with (same as the predator only not camo and no anchor). My father has the 15 and it is plenty big for several people and plenty stable but if you are going to power it anyways I would think that the additional capacity is well worth the weight and length. It also rows rather than paddles, which is more efficient when not powered (although I hate facing backwards, or rowing backwards).

    I would look for a Discovery 17' sport.

    http://www.tp-kayaks.com/_canoes/_ol...rysport17.html

    http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/show...s.html?prod=44

    http://glacierbaysports.com/cart/ind...roducts_id=342

  10. #10
    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Default lots of canoes

    here are some things to consider when looking at buying a canoe.
    Over the past 18 years of renting out canoes, and paddling them all, I don't even consider a square end canoe for paddling unless my motor fails.
    They are too wide, and so your angle of attack on the water is not straight up and down, This is trouble to keep your canoe straight, you lose power in your stroke, you wear out fast, and they are slow.
    I have a couple of those motor mounts that you can put of your double end canoe. I have used small outboard motors, and Electric motors, it is not the best, but it does work.
    in my opinion, there is not perfect canoe for everyone.
    If I were to reach for one canoe to attempt several different objectives, I would reach for my Old Town Camper. 16 ft, or my Mad river Duck hunter 17 ft.
    Made of Roylex, they only weigh about 57 lbs or so, are family friendly, hauls huge loads, paddles fairly easy, I can take it on lakes or rivers, will accept a motor mount, can bounce off rocks with little or no damage.
    they have good initial stability, have straight sides for easy paddling.
    The price is right, about $1,200.00 or less.
    Requires little or no maintenance. store it and forget until you need it again. Here is a link to Essex industries, this is a non profit company that puts special needs people to work. they produce some of the finest canoe accessories you can find. I buy lots of stuff from them each year. they also manufacture a good quality motor mount for Canoes. http://essexindustries.org
    below I have pasted in some of the different canoe designs and why..
    Max

    Canoe Anatomy: Size & Cross Section
    Length

    Longer canoes will have greater hull speed, better tracking and greater potential for carrying capacity. Shorter canoes will be more maneuverable and lighter in weight.
    Width

    Width, or beam, as it is called, is given in two measurements: the beam at the gunwale and the beam at the 4" waterline. The 4" waterline beam has the greatest influence on performance. Wide-beamed canoes offer great stability but may be somewhat slow. Narrow canoes may be less stable but afford better efficiency and hull speed.
    Depth

    Greater depth allows for increased carrying capacity and better water-shedding ability. However, deep canoes can be harder to handle in windy conditions and will be heavier. The shape of the bottom of the canoe and how it blends with the sides will influence its performance. Stability of a canoe is affected greatly by its cross section.
    Entry Lines

    The shape of the bow where it cuts the water will have an effect on the canoe's performance. A very sharp, knife-like entry will cut through the water easily and provide efficiency. A blunt bow will add fullness and give buoyancy in waves, thus a drier ride.
    Symmetry

    Symmetrical canoes have identical ends, bow and stern. They offer more-versatile designs and convert more readily from tandem to solo. Asymmetrical canoes are usually designed for a particular specialty.

    Flat bottom

    Flat bottom canoes offer great initial stability; that is, they feel very secure on calm water. Flat bottom canoes are great for sportsmen and general recreationalists looking for steadiness.
    Shallow arch bottom

    Shallow arch bottom canoes have less initial stability than flat bottom canoes, but good secondary stability. As the canoe is leaned, it will balance on its side and resist further tipping. Shallow arch canoes work well in waves and whitewater. Shallow arch bottom canoes offer the best all-around performance.
    Round bottom

    Round bottom canoes have very little initial stability, but may have good or even great secondary stability. They are designed for speed and efficiency. Round bottom canoes are usually fast, specialized canoes.
    Keels

    A keel will help tracking in short canoes and will help the canoe's resistance to crosswinds. Keels also work well on canoes used with outboard or electric motors, as they decrease sideslipping. They would not be appropriate on a canoe used in whitewater or situations where quick maneuvers are essential.
    Flare, Tumblehome, Straight-sided

    Design options for the sides of the canoe include flare, tumblehome or straight-sided. Flare will shed water and increase secondary stability. Tumblehome gives a narrower beam at the gunwale, which allows for easier paddling. Depending on where, with reference to the waterline, the tumblehome begins, this may decrease stability, (historically this feature began at the waterline, decreasing stability, hence itŐs name "tumblehome", in general, tumblehome on our boats begins at least 4" above the waterline at maximum capacity so as not to detract from stability). Straight-sided canoes are a compromise of the two. Many canoes will incorporate one, two or all three of these in different areas of the hull.
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Default

    I'd vote for the Roylex too a hve one and they are tough to beat. Kevlar is really a racing/distance cannoe material it is light but its allso verey britle one good knock and your looking at a new boat or expensive repair. That siad if ya plan on using a motor most of the time I dont see anything wrong with a square ended cannoe. In fact for alot of the rivers around here might be the choice (thats not intended to get a reaction I just can see where one would be handy for small rivers and lakes)

    Just one Alaskan and cedar strip biulders opinion
    Rick P

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Default

    Alaskacanoe: I didn't notice any mention of rocker in your post. Might be worth an addendum (unless I missed it).

  13. #13
    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Default Canoe rocker

    I guess I missed putting that in the post I made earlier.
    So I will paste in a visual aid on Rocker.
    Because most of us spend more time on flat water, Agressive Rocker is something we don't usually want in an all purpose canoe, but for those that have Love moving water, It is most wonderful.
    Tracking is important if you going distances on flat water, rocker will make tracking difficult if it is too agressive.

    Straight Line



    A straight keel line has no rocker,
    which allows for exceptional tracking
    ability but lacks maneuverability.


    Moderate Rocker



    Moderately rockered canoes are usually straight
    with a rise toward the ends. Most general
    recreation canoes have a moderate rocker.


    Heavy Rocker



    An extremely rockered keel line offers
    exceptional maneuverability but will
    not track well.

    When looking for a canoe, look to see if the canoe has a keel. The Keel is great for tracking, but requires alot more energy to spin and turn as a canoe without.
    Deciding what, where and how you are going to use your canoe will dictate the types you should be looking at.
    Max
    Last edited by Alaskacanoe; 03-14-2007 at 18:56. Reason: spelling
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

  14. #14

    Default

    Lots of good advice here so far. Let's hear a little more about what waters you'll be using the boat on -- are these Missouri River reservoirs, lakes in the BWCA, small rivers, or ??? Or all of the above?

    BTW, Royalex is probably going to be my hull material recommendation for you. Good combination of strength, maybe lighter than glass and certainly lighter than polyethylene, quiet, and substantially less money than Kevlar and the other high end compsoites. As noted above, you buy Kevlar and its ilk when you're portaging a lot and/or you want efficient contours on the hull. IMO, you want nothing to do with aluminum if you're hunting from it -- it's noisy and cold.

    The two Discovery Sports are boats, not canoes. You would not want to paddle either for any length of time. With oars and/or a motor, I think they're great boats if you need that capacity. You don't want to be flinging them onto a tall SUV too often at their weights.

  15. #15
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default typical waters

    I really appreciate you all taking the time to respond to my questions. You have talked me out of the kevlar canoes.

    Most of the rivers are small, narrow, yet not necessarily shallow (i.e. Missouri River drainage, Sheyenne river, Red River of the North, Goose River, Souris River). It will be used for extended hunting trips in the badlands, fishing in the numerous small lakes/rivers around Winnipeg-Minnesota-North Dakota. I don't think I will be up around the boundary waters all that much...great place though, hope to get up there and fish a bit.

    I won't be attaching any boats to my truck, I have an atv trailer that is more than long enough to accomodate a canoe and gear. The square sterns appeal to me. I don't want a "normal" boat... too big for some of the rivers and ponds. Yet I want to be able to throw in a couple of deer and still have room for my gear in the boat. I'm not planning on paddling, unless to maintain stealthiness, or because the motor decided not to cooperate.

    The information so far has been very helpful and appreciated.

    Attached is a picture of the typical river structure around here.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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    Looks like beautiful country, & if your intention is to be under engine power the vast majority of the time the square stern sounds like the boat for you.
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

  17. #17
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    It's not Alaska... but it has it's own kind of beauty...This place is flat (I mean flat)... the saying is "if your dog runs away tonight, you can get up in the morning and still see him going"

    The fishing is excellent. The hunting can be, but very little public land (in my end of the state anyway). I got spoiled in AK. So to take a little experience from AK, I'm going to get myself a canoe to access some of the more remote areas of the state, trying to stay as far away from the road system (crowds) as possible.

    Any other square stern canoe recommendations out there besides the Grumman and Old Towns????.... for comparison reasons, not that there is anythng wrong with these.
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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    Default conoe

    your photo is great I would like to go fishing right now as most of the water is hard up here now [but it will melt]

  19. #19

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    I too have a Scanoe, with a 2 hp. Honda f-stroke. It works great for what I do with it.

  20. #20
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default honda four-stroke canoe/small boat motors

    what is the resonable price per horse on those Honda motors. I haven't been able to shop for motors (deployed). Not needing specific prices, just a wag on what the going rate is.

    The honda four-stroke motor is what i want to go with (2-5 hp).
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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