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Thread: New Copperhead 16 HP ...

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    Default New Copperhead 16 HP ...

    Found this entry on MudMotorTalk.

    http://www.mudmotortalk.com/mmt_v2/v...hp?f=5&t=17841

    Pretty interesting. And a Vanguard V-twin.

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    Just talked with Gil at Copperhead about his new Vanguard powered surface drive motor.

    He has opted to go with the 18 hp Vanguard rather than the 16 horse. The unit weighs 135#, with electric start and a retail price of $3895. Hasn't put it on his web site yet, but will have video up on youtube shortly. Said that the 18 hp is as large as he's going.

    He also said that, in comparison to his 12 hp Copperhead, the 18 horse motor handles a heavy load better. And any vibration is virtually eliminated.

    135# sounds real good to me. It's only a little heavier than Family Man's Tohatsu.

    Many options to consider before buying a surface-drive motor.

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    Default Copperhead vs. Tohatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    135# sounds real good to me. It's only a little heavier than Family Man's Tohatsu.
    Yeah, I think 11 pounds heavier.

    I would suspect a LOT more power though.

    I wonder if its feasible to put a larger or second muffler on it though. It would have enough power to easily sustain a small power loss due to more mufflage, and more silent is more deadly. Maybe exhaust it underwater? I'm no mechanic so sorry if these seem to be dumb ideas.

    My Tohatsu at idle is so quiet; I love that. The Copperhead even at idle has quite a growl to it.

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    My 18 horse on the surface drive has been great , but I would have opted for it on the copperhead frame had it been
    available at the time. 30 pounds lighter is significant. Mine handles heavy loads easily. I also want to research a
    more efficient muffler. I read on a mud motor forum about routing a muffler tube under water but I believe there was
    a back pressure problem. Have to discuss that with a mechanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kandik View Post
    Have to discuss that with a mechanic.
    Ask him if the back pressure problem of either sound deadening solution might be mitigated by an adjustment in either the carburation or fuel injection systems? And also possible what type of HP-decrease one might see?

    Thanks in advance, I'd love to hear the answer.
    Last edited by FamilyMan; 07-09-2011 at 19:27. Reason: forgot to say thank you....

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    I like that idea of routing the exhaust to the water...
    It would be nice to know if this is possible and not an opportunity for the water to be sucked back into the engine.
    let us know what you find out
    Max
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskacanoe View Post
    I like that idea of routing the exhaust to the water...
    It would be nice to know if this is possible and not an opportunity for the water to be sucked back into the engine.
    let us know what you find out
    Max
    Gill (head guy at Copperhead) seems to be a really involved, stand up kind of guy. Maybe he might himself want to get involved in making a more stealthy type of Copperhead? Not everyone just motors up to their stand, turns it off, and then later blows away birds later.

    Is he on this forum? Anyone know? Anyone want to ask him?

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    I have seen those little add on mufflers for ATV's on the sports channel and they claim no loss of power..
    Seems that noise is not always an issue for folks using these motors.
    Some really like the loud sound of power.... I used to when I was a lot younger.... we uncapped the headers every weekend when we dragged main street back home... but for me now.. quiet is nice...
    last year when I listened to the air boats roaring around the slews during moose hunt, I realized how much I really hate noise polution now days...
    yesterday, I was on a canoe trip in the swanson river lakes, and a C-130 airplane or what ever, was doing some flying around the peninsula doing touch and goes at the kenai airport.. I could hear his roar for over 20 miles away.. It really cut into the potential tranquility ..
    I like quiet motors on my boat and love the 4 strokes that push my boats now days ,, even for just the quietness of them..
    ,,, take a minute and watch some of the videos from the mud buddy website,, and you can tell the manufacture enjoys the sound of power, as it is full in your face and high volume on the video clips they show there..
    ... I was going to suggest talking to the manufacture about noise pollution, but I don't think they think it a problem..
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    FamilyMan ...

    I'm pretty sure Gil doesn't come to this forum, although he's heard about it. I did, though, send him the link for kandik's picbucket gallery so that he can see what we are talking about, i.e., large freighter canoes and surface drives. His 15'/40" jon boat, with the 18 hp @ idle moves at 7 mph. For me, that's a problem, and needs a solution. On the MudBuddy 23 hp, an electric clutch (neutral) is an option. Disengage the clutch and the prop stops turning, although the motor continues to run. Of course, the electric clutch installation adds 20# to the motor's weight for a total of 190#.

    Like I asked in a prior thread, are surface drive motors a still unperfected technology?

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    Default Ah to be young...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskacanoe View Post
    ... I was going to suggest talking to the manufacture about noise pollution, but I don't think they think it a problem..
    I used to have a '69 Camaro with dual thrush mufflers (30+ years ago, and yes, that was cool then (for me, not for bystanders, especially mature ones). Now I, like you Max, love the very quiet sound of a 4 stroke outboard.

    From my point of view 2 stroke outboards are more whiney, jets even more so, and airboats the worst (except for a C-130 doing touch N go's :-) I'm pretty sure this viewpoint comes with age.

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    I used to have a '68 GTO that had the same problem...Thrush Cherry Bombs and the other problem..... it wore out rear tires REALLY fast too...but...I really loved that car!!

    I think it is maturity not just age and I hope to get there someday......

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Different manufactures of similar type engines attack noise differently.
    take for instance, a honda lawn mower engine, and a briggs engine of same HP. they are night and day on noise, and although I dont have privy to actual HP at the blade for each manufacture, I am pretty sure the Honda delivers as much power with much less noise and vibration. Its just not as important to Briggs as it is to Honda to reduce the noise..
    same seems to go with these larger air cooled surface drive setups.
    We may be unique up here as we oft times travel for many hours a day at constant speed, or throttle on very long rivers.
    I have been worn completely out from driving my little 25 hp 2 stroke jet motor pushing my Ranger for 8 hours, going up and down a river hauling moose. The vibration and I think especially the noise were just to much for that long of a day on the tiller..
    yet I can run my 4 stroke for 12 hours a day and although still be ready for bed that night, not be completely worn out, and I still have some teeth left at the end of the day..
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    it wore out rear tires REALLY fast too...
    LOL IT (i.e., nuthing to do with you) wore out rear tires...... That's a hoot, only 'cause I'm right next to you in my '69 camaro!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I think it is maturity not just age and I hope to get there someday......
    and here I'm hoping its more age than maturity, because I dont hope to get there someday (complete maturity)..... just take a look at King; he's got both goin' on ....

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    Understand...but...I think this maturity thing is sneeking up on me...I just put a quiet muffler on one of my dirt bikes for no particular reason. It was like I woke up one day and the muffler was on the bike and I remember putting the new muffler on, but have no idea what made me do it!!!

    This worrysome!!

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    Another issue that the mud motor folks discuss is ... holeshot. A fast holeshot is important in the bragging wars. I assume that means standing start acceleration is a big deal. Of course, to me, it make no difference.

    The noise, though, is a big deal, along with idle speed and neutral.

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    Default Copperhead 18 horse

    FamilyMan ...

    I talked with Gil @ Copperhead yesterday. He's heard from mainer-in-alaska recently, since he got back from his trip, reputed to be 300+ miles. A 300 mile Alaskan trip should define what the Copperhead is really like to live with. Like to hear his take.

    I'm on the verge of ordering a Copperhead 18, and would like to get some input from mainer before I do.

    Thanks, Rick

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    Default Copperhead 18

    I've seen a lot of Mainer and company lately; he's here on this forum not so much, lately.

    He is back, yes. I saw his report to Gil and his boat & motor since his return; a ton of good news and some smaller stuff to improve on; he and his had a good trip. PM me if you need more.

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    My youthful auto folly was a 1968 Corvette L89 (427 - 435 hp). I had several near-death experience with it and sold it after 14 months. It was fun while it lasted, but my wife hated it. I should have bought it while I was single.

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    Hello folks,
    I'll be around for a brief moment and then on the road again. Rick, I'd go with the Copperhead 18 horse when it comes out. You can adjust your idle speed by trimming the motor until half the prop is in the water and it works well when you need to put the canoe on the trailer. I'll be testing out the 18 horse motor on my frame very soon. My frame has seen alot of hours so far and is in good condition. We just got back from a dipnetting trip on the Kenai with the boat/motor combo. I'll post some pictures on a new thread. One thing many people don't understand about these motors is that that some props on other brands aren't made the same or made of the same materials as the Hopkins prop on my Copperhead. I've heard first-hand from some folks about breaking props along the cast markings. My prop has taken some hard hits and is perfectly fine. A few passes with a file and it's good to go. The metal of the Hopkins Prop is very thick and is much thicker than some others that I've handled personally.

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