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Thread: Actual harcast performance data?

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    Default Actual harcast performance data?

    Can anyone share personal data or links to articles of real life performance/penetration/wound channel data of equal caliber, weight, and velocity of XTP or Nosler hp(or similiar) vs. hardcast pistol bullets. I'm especially interested in .357,10mm,and 44 but any good quality data would be great. I searched and hit limits of speculation,ammo or preferred caliber wars, h2o jugs,pine boards,theories, etc. but no real apples to apples comparisons or testing results for defense or hunting situations.
    FYI I have always preferred heavy for caliber XTP or Nosler hp.
    Also good hardcast component sources would be helpful.
    Thanks

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    Member akrstabout's Avatar
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    Well I have to offer is, my first black bear was killed with .357mag with a 157gr hollow point-not sure on brand and don't remember if it was pass through, lung shot broadside=dead bear single shot. Next bear was a finishing shot with my .44mag and 300gr soft point loaded by alaska backpacker ammo I believe-brown clear plastic container of 20. Hit the bear in the neck in front of shoulders while it was down and curled up, paralized and still moving. I hit where aimed and it penetrated the whole neck and exited out the jaw by the lower lip inside, didn't effect rug mount. Lots of penetration though. Last kill was years black bear over bait with glock 20 with long slide and 6"bbl. Used 230gr 10mm load from Double Tap. A single shot through massive bear at a compound angle and complete pass through, huge chested bear and 100# of boneless meat! Feel more comfortable with 10mm and the hardcast. .44 load was good, but when on a brown bear hunt, I bought hard cast 320gr ammo. After shooting my first bear and looking at the ammo, I about punched my dad in the face! Nosler HP in a 10mm would definately not be my first choice, that's just me. You can get hardcast bullets from Double tap for handloads.

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    Look up John Linebaugh or Linebaugh cartridges and see pictures of the media and penetration.

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    The problem with what you are asking is that labratory type side by side evidence is very difficult to get as each shot in an animal is going to be a little different than the next because of a lot of factors. Angle of hit, exactly how much bone, muscle, fat and which organs are hit and even attitude of the particular animal you shoot all make a difference in how fast a given animal will drop. Cast round flat nose heavy for cal bullets at 1000/1400fps are fairly predictable. Soft nose expanding bullets less so as you never know whether or not they are going to expand, come apart or shoot through with little bullet damage. I can't share personal experience as I have none but I shoot heavy for cal cast as most folks think they are the better bullets .

  5. #5

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    Thanks for the responses. Its very interesting there appears to be such little field data for such a highly reccomended projectile. Might have to all start collecting and reporting data to get meaningful trends. I suspect there are lots of experiences on the subject that simply have never been written.

  6. #6

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    Most folks aren't going to write a book about it either.

    I can add this- I've never lost a head of game hit with a handgun bullet and only needed two followup shots in 35 years, so that's kind of an equalizer on my observations. By the same token I've never recovered a hard cast from game. That included a moose and two elk. Getting beyond speculation about hard cast bullets after impact would require carrying a metal detector to recover them somewhere beyond the animal. I have recovered numerous jacketed bullets from game including deer.

    It all depends on how much value you place on "full" penetration. Since I take only broadside lung shots, I can only add to the speculation about angling shots. When I've really studied the wound channels it "appears" that the major flesh disruption with hard cast occurred further back into the animal than with jacketed. At the back end of the channel jacketed are actually tearing up less flesh than the hard cast. Volume of flesh disrupted might or might not be the same for both, but it is certainly happening at a different rate and in different parts of the animal.

    One qualifier is that all my hard cast have large meplats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 450 ktm View Post
    Thanks for the responses. Its very interesting there appears to be such little field data for such a highly reccomended projectile. Might have to all start collecting and reporting data to get meaningful trends. I suspect there are lots of experiences on the subject that simply have never been written.
    I would say that assumption is correct. I have shot a lot of critters with handguns using a lot of different bullets and formed my own opinion long ago but only collected my ďdataĒ in the form of mental notes from which I formed my opinion.

    For hunting situations I always liked a jacketed soft point before I moved here to brown bear country. JSPs thwack game hard from the side, I know I hit because they react . . . often by folding in half as they fall. Here in Alaska I use hard cast, not because I think it works better in a typical hunting shot but because I want something with enough positive penetration to double as a bear defense round. Cast works fine in hunting but differently, itís more of a bleed them out deal than a fold them up because it will pass right through from the side . . . often from end to end even. I give up the thwack because I want to have a projectile that will penetrate to something vital on a bear from the front and I donít trust a JSP to do that.

    Hollow point is completely out for any use on game in my book. HP is intended for 4Ē to 8Ē of penetration with big fast expansion, just what you want on a man size/shape target. But not enough for large game and on smaller game the expansion causes too much damage to the prize. So my belief is hollow point, at least from a handgun, is a town projectile of little or no use in the woods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Most folks aren't going to write a book about it either.

    I can add this- I've never lost a head of game hit with a handgun bullet and only needed two followup shots in 35 years, so that's kind of an equalizer on my observations. By the same token I've never recovered a hard cast from game. That included a moose and two elk. Getting beyond speculation about hard cast bullets after impact would require carrying a metal detector to recover them somewhere beyond the animal. I have recovered numerous jacketed bullets from game including deer.

    It all depends on how much value you place on "full" penetration. Since I take only broadside lung shots, I can only add to the speculation about angling shots. When I've really studied the wound channels it "appears" that the major flesh disruption with hard cast occurred further back into the animal than with jacketed. At the back end of the channel jacketed are actually tearing up less flesh than the hard cast. Volume of flesh disrupted might or might not be the same for both, but it is certainly happening at a different rate and in different parts of the animal.

    One qualifier is that all my hard cast have large meplats.
    Same here, I have never found a hard cast after the deed ether but most JSPs stay in large game. Also agree with the wound channel observation . . . cast isnít slowing down much so does more deep damage where JSP is rapidly slowing doing its damage closer to entry.

    Iíve never lost one myself ether, they donít go far ether way! Years ago I put a very bad shot on a spike elk with a JSP from a 357, hit him in the flank. He hunched up, looked at me then just laid down where he was and allowed me to walk up to finish the job!
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    In the 80's J D Jones and Larry Kelly had a lot of stuff showing differences and J D sold the best HC bullets you could find. What I have seen is the HC passes through and the bone splinters do the damage to the insides. J D had a pic of a elephant skull Larry had taked with the 44mag and a hard cast bullet. They also shot the dead critter with other bullets giveing all most zero penatration,may have been 454 I getting old.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by 450 ktm View Post
    Can anyone share personal data or links to articles of real life performance/penetration/wound channel data of equal caliber, weight, and velocity of XTP or Nosler hp(or similiar) vs. hardcast pistol bullets. I'm especially interested in .357,10mm,and 44 but any good quality data would be great. I searched and hit limits of speculation,ammo or preferred caliber wars, h2o jugs,pine boards,theories, etc. but no real apples to apples comparisons or testing results for defense or hunting situations.
    FYI I have always preferred heavy for caliber XTP or Nosler hp.
    Also good hardcast component sources would be helpful.
    Thanks
    These guys have some experience and info....

    http://translate.google.com/translat...alibros.com%2F

    http://www.lasc.us/africanhunt-castbullets.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 450 ktm View Post
    Thanks for the responses. Its very interesting there appears to be such little field data for such a highly reccomended projectile. Might have to all start collecting and reporting data to get meaningful trends. I suspect there are lots of experiences on the subject that simply have never been written.
    I'd have to disagree...there are lots of experiences written down about hard cast bullets but the catch is the HC bullet at plodding velocity just isn't going to make interesting reading to the majority of consumers so what is written will seldom be published.

    Its hard to sell ad copy for an article about perhaps the lowest tech projectile in existence at velocities below the speed of sound.

    That says nothing about its effectiveness however. Lots of folks have been killing critters very dead with HC rounds for a long time...since the beginning of cartridge firearms. There is some info out there if you search around for it.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    Its hard to sell ad copy for an article about perhaps the lowest tech projectile in existence at velocities below the speed of sound.
    You nailed it. Magazine writers get their paycheck for hyping a magazine's advertisers. Period. No magazine is going to "waste" space on bullets folks cast themselves.

    Magazines these days are infomertials and the writers are hypes. Think Cal Worthington and his gun Spot.

  13. #13

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    I carry a 41 mag in bear country. I know some consider it marginal for large bears so I was curious about the penetration. I shot a dry white oak stump that was a year old and hard as nails. 250gr hardcast, grizzly ammo if I recall correctly. I took a welding rod, about 12" long, and poked it in the entry hole to see how deep it went. The rod went all the way in and didn't touch the bullet. I know bears are tough, but that convinced me that if I place my shot well the bullet will penetrate far enough.....
    For reference, my 357 with 158gr fmj went in about 5 inches. It's some seriously hard wood.

  14. #14

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    I'll now get busy reading... thanks again. I spent most of my life with rifles and archery but have tipped over some light deer,antelope, and varmints with the Nosler and XTPs and they did well in that application as they are not so demanding as far as size or danger(laughs). I also used to hike a lot where mtn lions where your main concern and they are thin and light so I figured expansion was a good thing. I once had the most unpleasant task of putting a good horse out of its misery and a 300 Nosler .44 hp between the eyes at 20 feet did not exit the back of the skull. Compare that to Snyd's ref. article where h.c. are penetrating the lenght of kudus...impressive.
    The sales dollars do try to ruin the publishing fo good reports I'll agree.
    If you look at home defense or personal defense articles the bias is definately "big city" where they just may have overpenetration concerns.
    Lots of stuff where for example the 200gr. 10mm hc penetrated 22 pine boards or 26 inches of gel which is well and good but would be seriously more meaninful if compared to equal jhc or hp for contrast to best evaluate terminal performance for intended applications.
    I'm enjoying dusting off some old hanguns and a few reloading dies also.

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    fishfood
    I also use a 41mag as my woods gun but I don't consider it to be at all on the light side with the right load. I'm using homemade 270gr jacketed hard cast at 1200fps. I haven't shot anything with them yet but I don't expect to recover many bullets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishfood View Post
    I carry a 41 mag in bear country. I know some consider it marginal for large bears . . .
    No more so than a 44 Mag or well loaded 45 Colt in my view and fact I prefer 41 to 44 myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    fishfood
    I also use a 41mag as my woods gun but I don't consider it to be at all on the light side with the right load. I'm using homemade 270gr jacketed hard cast at 1200fps. I haven't shot anything with them yet but I don't expect to recover many bullets.
    Well, I've never shot a large animal with a handgun and I guess I've naively been influenced by all the "nothing short of a howitzer will kill a brownie" hype

    Regardless, I shoot the gun plenty and am pretty proficient with it. I hope I never get to test my nerve and have to place a shot on a charging bear. The only time I was ever charged I didn't have it and kept my cool. I frimly believe having knowledge of bear behavior and being aware is your best defense. But I digress......

    Question: I'm having a hard time finding a good chest holster for it. It's a 4" Taurus Tracker. Anyone have a source?

    God Bless,

    Andrew

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    Member AKsoldier's Avatar
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    To the OP - I have researched the same subject myself, and I'm convinced that the best handgun defense round for dangerous game is heavy for caliber hard-cast bullets. There are plenty of writings out there to support this.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishfood View Post
    Question: I'm having a hard time finding a good chest holster for it. It's a 4" Taurus Tracker. Anyone have a source?

    God Bless,

    Andrew
    http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php
    Andy
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