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Thread: a little out of hand

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    Default a little out of hand

    :cool: i know a lot of folks will not like what i have to say here but i feel compelled to say it because i have watched it from day 1. I lived on the mouth of the kenai. the year was 1989 and the exxon valdez and drunken joe had spilled 11 million gallons of thick crude oil into the once pristine waters of prince william sound. commercial fishing was curtailed in cook inlet for fear of contaminated fish ruining alaskas image of top quality commercially caught fish. an over escapement into the kenai and kasilof rivers looked imme:cool: nent, so fish and game decided to open the mouths of the rivers up and give folks a chance to net some of these surplus fish. it was crazy. the fish were thick and netting was easy. only problem was that people liked it and soon began an organized effort to form a new user group. personal use fisheries were already available, but this was so much easier and so much fun! next thing we know all of alaska has the right to come to the mouth of the kenai to get their yearly allottment of sockeyes and even a few kings. alaskans, especially anchorage folks, now come here in droves and their orginazation has even pressured fish and game to not have emergency commercial openings prior to the weekend dipping opener in order to create a stable and predictable fishery for those wishing to drive here from afar and get their share of these reds. to me this is insane. this has made it even more difficult for fish and game to manage the escapement into the kenai because the fish don't always hit the river with our best interests in mind. and I for one tip my hat to fish and game for their amazing performance. with all the pressure from all the user groups we still have steady runs of fish! the chaos that takes place during these openers is heart breaking to me. the garbage, crowds and carnage are hard to watch. standing on the bluff looking over the mouth of the kenai one can only shake their head. how in the world did it ever come to this?

  2. #2
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    Default Questions. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by gotfish? View Post
    . . . personal use fisheries were already available,

    . . . and their orginazation has even pressured fish and game to not have emergency commercial openings prior to the weekend dipping opener in order to create a stable and predictable fishery for those wishing to drive here from afar and get their share of these reds.
    Two questions:

    1) What "personal use" fisheries were already available?

    2) What "organization" are you referring to?


  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by gotfish? View Post
    i know a lot of folks will not like what i have to say here but i feel compelled to say it because i have watched it from day 1. ?
    Day one? You could go back for hundreds of years and find people crowded around the shores netting fish. It's not a new concept, and I don't think it's out of hand considering the numbers of overescapement. It's better than letting them go up and die in numbers that people estimate will decrease the return.
    It's not like people are trying to get rich off the resources, they are just getting something to eat! Why should commercial fishermen be the only ones allowed to net them?
    If overescapement shrinks then maybe someone could consider it out of hand, but until then, let people participate in preventing overescapement and get some food for the winter, the Alaskan way!
    Hike faster. I hear banjo music.

  4. #4

    Default on the kenai daily

    Ok i live here in Soldotna, I have fished the river daily,noo i am not a guide.
    I meet many people that dip net the river that do not need the fish,but it
    is another means to control the flow of fish.
    Under the current system if the fish are in at big numbers the sport fisherman are allowed to get 6 per day (reds).if you come down for 3 days you get your 24 fish, bring the kids and a truck load of relatives and get 6 each for 3 days.
    thats say 6 people x six fish x 3 days there is over 100 fish and thats more than dip netting,
    Or you can dip net for the day go sport fishing for the day for 3 days and really clean up.
    The early subsistance fishing was a set net on the beach or a fish wheel.
    The earliest residents shared fish wheels and the fish it produced.one wheel would feed a whole community.
    I am a sports fisherman that feeds my family with what i gather.I have friends that are commercial fisherman and guides and non fisherman,and we all get along. I hear dipnetters complaining about no flow of fish, move here and you can go to the beach anytime. it is a simple solution,buy a house,pay taxes to clean the beach.
    I know this post will get picked apart and spell checked. so...
    Thanks and hope to see you on the river, Ak fishing

  5. #5

    Default Don't tempt me like that...

    Quote Originally Posted by akfishingfool View Post
    move here and you can go to the beach anytime. it is a simple solution,buy a house,pay taxes to clean the beach.

    Thanks and hope to see you on the river, Ak fishing
    It would be a dream to live in Soldotna. Unfortunately, my wife needs her costco, walmart, a hundred restaurants, skiing, ect. Nice of you to invite people to move to your town, most people wouldn't do that. I would think Soldotna and Kenai would really get hurt if dipnetting were ever eliminated.
    Hike faster. I hear banjo music.

  6. #6

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    akfishinfool, I dont want to spoil it for you, and maybe you just left out this tid bit, but the limit is 3 in possession, possession being the key word. Unless the fish are processed you can only keep three your entire trip. You can always jar them at the end of the day though. I just do not want someone to think they can load up all weekend and then get a ticket.

  7. #7
    Member AKFishOn's Avatar
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    Default Limits

    You can also catch your limit for the day and then freeze them (I take a generator the power the freezer when not able to plug into prime power). Then fish the next day for another limit, provided you have processed (i.e. caned, ate, smoked or completely frozen) the days prior catch. When the up the limit to 6 reds a day it is possible to go to the Kenai for a week (rod and reel 7x6 = 42/person) and dipnet (family of four = 55) and leave with 100+ frozen reds. But you will need about 14 cubic feet of freeze space. I've seen plenty of canners out there too, just watch many out of state folks buy jars at Trustworth. I often fish with a guy from Washington who canned 100+ jars one year and leaves with a 14 cubic foot freezer down the ALCAN. I once canned 240 pints one year, ate fish for 2.5 years, so have since slowed down. Like to help the boys and the wife fish now, and friends from out of state, pictures and video is cool too.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean Denter View Post
    When the up the limit to 6 reds a day it is possible to go to the Kenai for a week (rod and reel 7x6 = 42/person) and dipnet (family of four = 55) and leave with 100+ frozen reds. .
    Can you dipnet and fish with a rod and reel the same day? I thought that was not legal? I have only heard that though, have not looked it up myself.
    Hike faster. I hear banjo music.

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    Default Rod and Reel and Dipnet

    Usually hard to fit both in on the same day if Dipnetting is good, but I have dipnetted AM and netting nothing then went fishing with rod a reel PM.

    I've seen a few folks at the Kasilof dipnet then with the tide gets crapping start fishing with a rod, don't know if they we in the wrong but I think that netting fish falls into a class of it's own.

    Maybe you can find the answer in ADF&Gs 252 page personnel use and subsitence report.

    http://www.subsistence.adfg.state.ak...ad/asf2003.pdf

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    Default feeling...

    I have a feeling that you COULD legally sportfish after dipnetting IF you had less than 3 in your possesion. If you had say 9 reds, then I doubt you could sportfish as how could an agent know where/when/how those 9 were come by?

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    Default feeling...

    I have a feeling that you COULD legally sportfish after dipnetting IF you had less than 3 in your possesion. If you had say 9 reds, then I doubt you could sportfish as how could an agent know where/when/how those 9 were come by?

  12. #12
    Member AKFishOn's Avatar
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    Default Clip the Tails

    Think the reason we clip the tails is to tells if they were sport fish caught or dipped.

    If I was to ever combine the two I would sport fish AM, go and clean, bag and process before heading dip netting. Haven't had the desire to run between one or the other sport. And if you were fishing with a rod near the mouth and caught one, which you added to your pile of dipped fish. I believe you would have a hard time convincing ADF&G that you one fish without the clipped tail was caught on a rod. Just my thoughts, normally not enough time to do both in a day if dipping is good and I always take very good care of the fish I dip to get them cleaned and in the freezer as fast as possible as I consider dipped fish to be what goes into the smoker and we eat through the year if not longer.

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    Default

    I would rather catch fish on rod and reel although dipping can be fun/productive. I have fished on a couple of occassions and then dipped that evening. I have never read any regulation stating that you can or can't combine the two techniques on the same day. IMO the difference is that fishing is done in the river under sportfishing regulations and dipnetting is done in what would probably be considered saltwater and also falls under the personal use guidelines. To me those are two seperate limits/regulations but I could be wrong.

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    Default

    my sig says it all
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Default Explain please

    Monkey could you try to explain your sig please? I've never really seen what you are trying to say there. How in the world do the two really connect? You want to talk PWS pinks and yep w/o commercial they wouldn't be there, but Kasilof, Kenai and Copper? All natural runs. You talking about overescapement? What? Thanks!!

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    Default

    Absolutely - In sockeye salmon management it has been found that if you only allow so many fish to spawn you get a large surplus of fish returning because the habitat utilization potential is maximized. The best example of this close to home is the coghill river which gets a run of 120,000 fish yearly but only and escapement of 15-20,000 fish. Another good example is the Fraser river in british columbia here is a figure

    Period ___________Fraser Run Size _____Escapement ______Cdn Comm. Catch
    1990-97 __________13,314,405 ________4,514,305 _________7,046,191
    1998-05 __________7,468,473 _________5,843,335 __________874,413

    Cdn = canadian (washington fishermen take a % of this run)
    from this paper http://ats.agr.ca/can/4228_e.htm

    basically what it boils down to is that by harvesting 2.3 million fish out of the 3 million fish run you will continue to produce a 3 million fish run whereas if left to nature the run would overescape initially and the run would crash and eventually settle at a much lower leval note in the case of the fraser river the run size decreases ~45% when commercial fishing ends so basically commercial fishing creates a surplus of fish which are harvestable by dipnetters with out comm fishing there would be no dipnetting period. Some would argue that dipnetting could do the job on comm fish biologically but that would require the dip net catch the increse ten fold which is unrealistic and would lead to waste. Remember that the 250,000 or so personal use fish which are caught come directly out of the pockets of the fishermen it costs them as a whole ~1.25 million dollars thats 2.5 grand per boat / setnet site in the area, now would you be upset if someone started taking 2 grand from you yearly? Of course you would thats why we still have a PFD. The good news is there's room for everyone and there are enough fish that get through the gillnets and get into the river the BEGs as well as personal use needs can be met, it is time however for dipnetters to stop complaining and start thanking their fellow fishermen for thei money and what they do for the run.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Default windows are a management tool

    No one pressured fish and game to restrict commercial openers just prior to dip netting. Those are called windows and they are in the upper cook inlet management plan to allow fish into the river, no matter if it was during a strong part of the run or a weak part. It still puts fish into the river for sportsfishermen, throughout the season. Statistically, it averages out. Since you live there, you can go out and sportfish everyday and get your share for the year. I have to work and can't afford to make weekend trips all summer long. By your tone, I guess Anchoragittes, aren't part of the alaskan population, allowed to get access to the resource? How about valley trash? Are they? I am trying to start an ALASKA DIP NETTING group, so who was this group of people that pressured F&G into shutting down the commercials just before dip netting? Maybe I don't have to start a group, I just need to find this group you are referring to!

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    Default windows

    I made a mistake saying an organization pressured for these windows. I was told that's what happened, didn't check myself, and apologize for the mis-information. That being said, it doesn't change the facts. Fish and Game needs emergency openings available to them whenever they deem its necessarry to mop up some fish. Do you know what the consequences of over-escapement are? Salmon don't show up on our schedules. I don't care where you are from and I certainly don't call you trash. You have as much a right to these fish as I do. But to lobby for policy that insures there being fish in the river when you can come.... is it just me? Maybe you could talk them into building a big fish pen down by the mouth and they can hold them for you until you can make it.

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    Powder monkey has misread a report on the Fraser river.....the runs dropped off because of overfishing, habitat loss and other factors. Taking fish commercially does not improve a run....it does make good use of harvestable fish as does the personal use and sport fishery. Escapements over the goal in the Kenai and Kasilof have led to record returns and record harvests by commercial and other users alike.

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    Default

    You dipnetters should get together and buy the 500 permits and see how well the run does without comm fish. Ask any fisheries biologist about optimum escapement goals with sockeye salmon and they will agree with me.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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